Planning application for 6-storey apartment block development for PPOR + 2 properties

[Beanie Girl]

We once use a very well-known architectural firm for our highrise development TP application, mostly due to marketing purposes. The fee is around 100k, but it is for TP & VCAT only. The full fee may be around 3-5% cost of work.

Thanks a lot Esdarch! Wow! That sounds like a whopping fee!
In our case though there will definitely be no VCAT, the responsible authority will be Council Planning Dept because no other residents besides myself around these parts have the knowledge and understanding of how to recognize and read a public notice, read a planning application and deduce its implications, draft a substantive pro-forma objection letter, letterbox it, collect it back and return it to Council within the 10 working day deadline.

I've never objected to townhouse or unit developments in my street, I welcome them but I have objected to inappropriate developments like a 24 hour liquor store in a residential area, a 24 hour car wash/convenience store and a 16 and 18 storey mostly 1 bedroom apartments 15km from the city in an awkward area.

I have trooped into and out of Council meetings, Priority Development Panel hearings, VCAT hearings more times than I can care to remember over the last 10 years. Once I even brought a Channel 7 team to film the Council's Urban Planning Meeting where they had to make a decision to accept or knockback a massive, massive development. The Federal MP and State MP were there to lend support.

How high-rise was your high-rise? Above 10 stories?

 

[esdarch]

Thanks a lot Esdarch! Wow! That sounds like a whopping fee!
In our case though there will definitely be no VCAT, the responsible authority will be Council Planning Dept because no other residents besides myself around these parts have the knowledge and understanding of how to recognize and read a public notice, read a planning application and deduce its implications, draft a substantive pro-forma objection letter, letterbox it, collect it back and return it to Council within the 10 working day deadline.

I've never objected to townhouse or unit developments in my street, I welcome them but I have objected to inappropriate developments like a 24 hour liquor store in a residential area, a 24 hour car wash/convenience store and a 16 and 18 storey mostly 1 bedroom apartments 15km from the city in an awkward area.

I have trooped into and out of Council meetings, Priority Development Panel hearings, VCAT hearings more times than I can care to remember over the last 10 years. Once I even brought a Channel 7 team to film the Council's Urban Planning Meeting where they had to make a decision to accept or knockback a massive, massive development. The Federal MP and State MP were there to lend support.

How high-rise was your high-rise? Above 10 stories?

lol, it seems you have great neighbors.

So far I consider above 16 levels as high rise. Within this range we have to deal with DPCP, not local council.

 

[chindonly]

Agree with ES.

Recently put in a DA for 12 storeys. $125k to DA, and expect more cost once information request comes out.

 

[Beanie Girl]

Agree with ES.

Recently put in a DA for 12 storeys. $125k to DA, and expect more cost once information request comes out.

Wow!!! So my little 6-storey development will cost half that amount? 60 grand for a DA/planning permit? No kidding?
Hahaha, maybe I'll just do a planning permit to stack and pack this 1925m joint with as many 2 storey townhouses as Council will allow me as even after 1 July, there is NO minimum lot size for 2 storey townhouses for a GRZ zone. Can you believe that? No minimum lot size...shake head...
Maybe I'll just start a thread 'my baby townhouses development'...*hysterical laughter*

The funny thing is, I've never, EVER aspired to be a developer....
much less a high-density developer
It's funny what strange paths life forces you to take....
have to put on a developer hat now and think like a developer.....

but the strangest thing is I know more about what planning outcomes Council expects from a high-density development than a townhouse development...

'a responsive interface', 'too dominant, too visually bulky', 'graduated' "aspects', 'parking ratios', 'open space provision in balconies' 'percentage of windowless rooms', the need to provide disabled parking/apartments for disabled, provision for disabled ramps

I know scratch about a townhouse development!
So is that a sign I should keep pursuing a high-density development???
50, 60 units? vs 12-16 townhouses?

 

[Beanie Girl]

I don't think Council will make it so difficult for me to make a permit application. I don't think it will be that expensive either because Council will be wanting this development to happen.

I remember that in the previous incarnation of the 'draft new residential zones map', my site and surrounding area was zoned the strictest zone, NRZ1. At least 250m average gross dwelling density per 1 dwelling for developments of 3 or more dwellings.

But Council was extremely worried about how housing was going to be 'affordable' in my area. It was already so out of reach for so many people.
So council commissioned private consultants to study what the impact of the new NRZ1 zoning would have had on new dwellings built in my little pocket, had NRZ been in place from 2005-2013.

In summary, the analysis found that if the NRZ had been
in place over the period 2005-2013 in my area, approximately 1005 new dwellings out of a total 2,322 would not have been supplied. This hypothetical loss represents about 43% of total new dwellings over the analysis period.

Council consequently rezoned my site and surrounding area from NRZ1 to GRZ, skipping a level of zoning NRZ2. They can only mean that Council wants more development in my site area and surrounds in order to provide more housing options and more affordable ones at that.

Everything is going for auction at the moment in my suburb. 550k, 650k, 750k are start prices for the auction. Really struggle to find anything below 550k.

 

[Beanie Girl]

no residential neighbours on left and right boundary, so no overlooking
okay, the estimated construction cost for 6000sqm of apartment on 1925sqm land is a paltry 15 million dollars

 

[Nash13]

Current zoning is R1Z? And after the deadline it will be GRZ yea? This is not a radical shift, are any other changes to the PS proposed?

 

[Beanie Girl]

Current zoning is R1Z? And after the deadline it will be GRZ yea? This is not a radical shift, are any other changes to the PS proposed?

I am guessing PS means 'Planning Scheme'
Are there any other changes to the Planning Scheme proposed - I'm not sure what you mean, Nash....
You mean the local Council planning scheme?
I am not complaining about the GRZ zone - there is no minimum size for 2-storey townhouses you can stack and pack on any size of land, just depends on what gets approved
But as a 4 storey development has been approved nearby, I am just trying for the same or a little more on this site

 

[Beanie Girl]

okay, also got a quote for 10 mill and upper end of teens.
So quotes for construction so far are 10, 15 and near 20 mill
1925m, 50m frontage and approx 6000m total apartment area.
Why is the range so wide, you reckon?

 

[sanj]

okay, also got a quote for 10 mill and upper end of teens.
So quotes for construction so far are 10, 15 and near 20 mill
1925m, 50m frontage and approx 6000m total apartment area.
Why is the range so wide, you reckon?

You haven't received a quote from anyone, you've received extremely rough, verbal estimates that ultimately don't mean anything because no plans have been finalised, spec levels, site works costs etc.

Honestly I get that you want to maximise this opportunity you have but judging from some of the questions you're asking this is way above your current experience level. The only chance you have of pushing through a DA in next couple of months is to team up with someone who has lots of experience here and get them to run with it.

You seem to think there will be special rules for you and your development ie no car parking required, I hate to burst your bubble but that is simply not going to be the case.

 

[Beanie Girl]

You haven't received a quote from anyone, you've received extremely rough, verbal estimates that ultimately don't mean anything because no plans have been finalised, spec levels, site works costs etc.

Honestly I get that you want to maximise this opportunity you have but judging from some of the questions you're asking this is way above your current experience level. The only chance you have of pushing through a DA in next couple of months is to team up with someone who has lots of experience here and get them to run with it.

You seem to think there will be special rules for you and your development ie no car parking required, I hate to burst your bubble but that is simply not going to be the case.

hahaha! you mean someone as rude and as arrogant as you? No way!
By the way, I didn't get the quotes from someone by the likes of you sanj, these are big companies, developers and architects who have designed and are building similar developments

 

[Aaron_C]

As long as it isn't in a NIMBY area like mine (City of Yarra or Stonnington) it should be far easier to get a permit regardless of zoning. Councils are hungry for cash and developments are the easiest way to get it!

 

[oc1]

hahaha! you mean someone as rude and as arrogant as you? No way!
By the way, I didn't get the quotes from someone by the likes of you sanj, these are big companies, developers and architects who have designed and are building similar developments

Wow! Way to handle constructive criticism

I wouldn't call sanj arrogant nor is he trying to "get" your business. He's a developer himself.

I agree with sanj, those estimates mean nothing other than a very very rough ballpark figure.

 

[sanj]

hahaha! you mean someone as rude and as arrogant as you? No way!
By the way, I didn't get the quotes from someone by the likes of you sanj, these are big companies, developers and architects who have designed and are building similar developments

My pot was not intended to be rude or arrogant.

I hate seeing people get over their head and lose money and currently all signs point to this
It isn't an insult, it just means you lack the experience to do a 60 apartment development as your first one.

It doesn't matter how experienced those companies are, what you have been given are not quotes, they are rough estimate.

Think about it logically, how can something be quoted before plans are re even drawn?? It relies on the builder using a whole bunch of assumptions and different builders would assume different things which is why you're getting such a big range.

You asked why the big range I'm trying to explain why here.

If you're going to get so antsy over a simple post like that I suggest you strap yourself in because a 60 apartment development is going to do your head in.

 

[Beanie Girl]

have to put on a developer hat now and think like a developer.....

I never said I was going to do the development myself, Sanj
I said I have to 'put on a developer hat now and think like a developer...' in order to do this planning application right and submit it to Council in a very short space of time
I only found out I had such a short space of time on Friday and as I said, a Council Planning Officer 'strongly encouraged' me to put in a planning application ASAP

My architect is very confident of xx storeys, beyond that level, he has to suss out with Council if they are comfortable first before putting in the application...he himself has a development planned or approved for the same number I want to ask for...

I also got a rough quote for the entire application for him and his team, same as for 5-6 townhouses...so might as well go for a bit higher density, don't you think?

architect
town planning
landscaping
traffic engineer
waste management
esd

etc

 

[sanj]

The thing is you have to act as a developer to get the best outcome. You need to work out what the market wants, what the most profitable outcomes are, what level of design detail, ceiling heights, balcony sizes, unit sizes, mix of units in terms of bedrooms etc, blah blah blah. Your architect will need a clear and concise brief if you are to achieve the best possible outcome and that goes back to my earlier point, you simply don't have the time to do all the DD and then get plans drawn up and submitted.

You would have a much better chance if you teamed up with someone who has done this many times before and no I'm not referring to myself as I have no experience in Melbourne.

Anyway I'll leave you to it, feel free to think I've got some agenda or whatever.

Also, the fact that the architect is saying it will cost roughly the acme to design 6 townhouses as it would 60 apartments is definitely raising a few red flags imo

 

[Beanie Girl]

Also, the fact that the architect is saying it will cost roughly the acme to design 6 townhouses as it would 60 apartments is definitely raising a few red flags imo

no, no, sanj, the architect's estimated quote for the 1925m site for the apartment development is the same or just a little bit more than a town planning company in the east whom I contacted for a rough quote over the phone for 5-6 townhouses on approx. 1256m of land.

The quotes did not come from the same architect.
And I was asking about the construction cost to estimate the amount of money I have to pay to apply for the planning permit to Council, Council has different costs for different scale of developments....

I'm not that crazy as to think I can do a 50-60 apartment development myself when I have no experience to even do a simple subdivision.....

 

[Ideo]

Started writing before you posted. Misunderstood.

 

[esdarch]

okay, also got a quote for 10 mill and upper end of teens.
So quotes for construction so far are 10, 15 and near 20 mill
1925m, 50m frontage and approx 6000m total apartment area.
Why is the range so wide, you reckon?

Roughly 3k/sqm for this type of development. If you can manage properly and no surprising event, it can be 2.5k/sqm. Plus 10% contingency and you'll have the idea about the total budget.

Without drawings, specs, reports, the estimation is not a "quote", just an indication only.

 

[Beanie Girl]

thanks esdarch!!! *grateful*
Will send you pm about how it is going....thanks for your sms