Please help me--about lawyer's fees

[violots]

Hello everyone, I am wondering if I should pay this or not?

In May 2008, I made an offer to a house, before signing the offer, I faxed the offer to a lawyer and she made some suggestions of the offer before I signed it, but the owner of the house did not accept the offer, so I have not contacted the lawyer since then. She called me later and I told her the owner of the house did not accept my offer.

Several days ago, I got the bill letter from this lawyer, she is asking me to pay for perusing draft contract and investigating title to the property, I am wondering if I should pay her or not, because I did not ask her to do the title search at all, and some lawyers do not charge for reading draft contract.

Any suggestions? and what's the possible result of ignoring of this bill letter?

Thanks a lot.

 

[Dazz]

I presume you also had a chat with said lawyer prior to faxing across the draft contract for her perusal and comment.

What exactly were you instructions as client, both verbally during the phone call and written down accompanying the fax to your lawyer ??

On the face of what you have written above in your post, it seems reasonable for the lawyer to charge for the work they performed at your request for your benefit.

Whether the Seller accepted or rejected your offer is immaterial, IMO. The lawyer has spent their time and expertise helping you draft the exact wording to your Offer, else of course you naturally wouldn't have signed and submitted it if you weren't in total agreement.

Did you sign the lawyers contract of engagement for their services ??

 

[Spectre]

Hi
Not trying to be tough... lawyers bill for everything and believe me I've paid top dollar in more than one case so believe me I've been in your shoes.

But if you didnt want her advice why did you send her a contract or why didnt you ask her upfront if shed charge for it? (i.e. is it a case of buyer beware?)

Where I'm heading is end of the day you sent her the stuff to do and advise on and from what it looks like you used her advice, so didnt you in effect engage her at the end?

I think somewhere there is a scale fee for solicitors on the law society and guidelines too you might want to check on.

And I've just seen Dazz pipp me
But solicitors rarely work for free...

Also did you sign a client agreement?

 

[Perchy]

You need to ask the lawyer to show the contract between you and her (or her office) regarding the investigating the title to the property. The lawyer should be itemising the bill and the title investigation itself should only cost $16.35 (& her bill should show this).

I made an offer to a house, before signing the offer, I faxed the offer to a lawyer and she made some suggestions of the offer before I signed it

She can charge you for perusing the contract - not all lawyers do it for free as it is their billable time, and aparently you agreed with it by signing. You can argue with her on the point of the titles search, but by getting her to look at the contract, your rendering of her service was inferred. Of course you should never make assumptions and talk upfront about fees/costs.

she is asking me to pay for perusing draft contract and investigating title to the property

If you & the lawyer don't have a written contract, and her charging you was inferred by you asking her to look at the contract, you can argue this as all you requested was a contract of offer. The lawyer didn't have explicit consent from you to do a title search so she should not charge you for it & of course not charge you for her time doing something you did not explicitly requested.

I am wondering if I should pay her or not, because I did not ask her to do the title search at all, and some lawyers do not charge for reading draft contract.

Personally I would pay for doing the drafting of the contract - you will lose on this point in front of a judge as you signed it after she made suggestions - so you agreed to her work, and I would request a please explain on the title search and get her to itemise the bill including down to the minute, and use of anything for the completion of said service - just cause I can. & then based on her explanation(s) will act accordingly (don't know if its worth fighting, but hopefully at least she realise she jumped the gun and decrease the bill).

What's the possible result of ignoring of this bill letter?

Well I believe its better to acknowledge such bills and letters when it comes to financial matters, the sooner the better. I would write a letter back to the lawyer acknowledging you have received their letter on such date and acknowledge her bill. Point out that you did ask her to draft up a letter of offer to the vendor on such date but did not explicitly request a title search. Point out that if was just an offer and because a binding contract between you and the vendor was not yet in place, a title search on the property would be jumping the gun. (I had my conveyancing, finance & inspections lined up and ready to go, but I would not go ahead til I saw the vendor's signature on the contract).

THIS IS IMPORTANT - KEEP COPIES OF ALL LETTERS RECEIVED & SENT - WHEN YOU SEND A LETTER BY MAIL, ALSO SEND A FAX & KEEP THE FAX CONFIRMATION, DATED WOULD BE GREAT. IF YOU NEED TO SPEAK ON THE PHONE, KEEP A RECORD OF THE CONVERSATION AND ACKNOWLEDGE THE CONVERSATION VIA MAIL/EMAIL/FAX - if you had to go to court, at least you have records of the story.

Now what happens if you ignore the bill or choose not to pay up? Well it depends on how big the bill is. I'm gonna assume its a few hundred dollars to maximum of a few grand. I would consider it a minor debt, and the smart thing for the lawyer to do (that is if you don't pay up) is to take a minor debt claim against you, in which you have 28 days to defend the claim. You won't need a lawyer for this - you can represent yourself. Worst case it goes before the magistrates and you are enforced to pay the money - of course the court will work with you to set up a payment plan to pay the debt back, you can get more information via
http://www.legalaid.qld.gov.au/Publications/Factsheets+and+guides/Self-help+kits/Minor+debt/
You can also ask legal aid for free advice.

 

[Perp]

I'm wondering whether, given that the lawyer has done work that you requested, you should just pay. If it's exorbitant, however, that's another matter. How much is she asking?

I'm wondering whether you consider it exorbitant - because it's a couple of hundred dollars - when in fact, it's very cheap - by lawyer standards.

 

[Perchy]

I'm wondering whether you consider it exorbitant - because it's a couple of hundred dollars - when in fact, it's very cheap - by lawyer standards.

It doesn't matter what the charge is, she agreed to it by viewing and signing the contract after the lawyer made her suggestions. Whether the op knows it or not, it doesn't matter what the lawyer charges - she should've done her due diligence and asked up front.

 

[violots]

Thanks a lot.

I am going to pay her, the bill is not too much. I just want to know it is normal or not to get such a letter. Because I did not expect at all that she would do the title search.
I used another solicitor firm when I made another offer, because this firm is bigger than hers, I presume maybe the bigger,the better?

 

[Perchy]

Hi Violet

Once again I don't see the need to involve a lawyer to make an offer. Unless you got some very complex clauses that you want to make sure is adhered to on the contract. I would assume a larger law firm would charge more, and more resources to chase you for the $.

I looked at my brother's legal fees for when he went through buying a home a few years back, all up the whole process of buying a home, conveyancing, settlement, etc costs him under $2k. I'm going through the buying process at the moment, representing myself & doing my own conveyancing I have spent less than $500.

I do not believe in paying over $10 so some secretary in a law firm can fax a letter.. Imagine how far the fees can go...

 

[Spectre]

Bigger sized law firms dont mean better.

They have to check to see who has your file as it often gets allocated to a conveyancer (not a solicitor) and then forget to follow things through until last minute because they're so swamped with work.

Personally I prefer and refer more to smaller firms around Brissie but its because you can ring whoever it might be directly and they know exactly where a file is at and you dont get on hold while they try to track down 'whos got your file' and then see where the status notes are on it.

 

[The Y-man]

Bigger sized law firms dont mean better.

Agree. Unless you are intending to get involved in class action or major criminal prosecution/defence

Cheers,

The Y-man

 

[The Y-man]

Hi Violet

Once again I don't see the need to involve a lawyer to make an offer. Unless you got some very complex clauses that you want to make sure is adhered to on the contract. ..

Agree.

In Victoria, once a lawyer peruses the doco, I think you waive some of the rights (was it the 3 day cooling off?)

Cheers,

The Y-man

 

[Perp]

It doesn't matter what the charge is, she agreed to it by viewing and signing the contract after the lawyer made her suggestions. Whether the op knows it or not, it doesn't matter what the lawyer charges - she should've done her due diligence and asked up front.

I don't believe this is true. In QLD a solicitor must provide you with a client agreement, and have you accept it, for work over $750. As no client agreement was signed, the maximum violots could be charged is $750.

 

[Player]

Agree.

In Victoria, once a lawyer peruses the doco, I think you waive some of the rights (was it the 3 day cooling off?)

Cheers,

The Y-man

Yep. I'm also under that impression Y-man.

If you've sought independent legal advice from a solicitor prior to actually signing the contract attached to the vendor's statement you waive the 3 day cooling off period.

Also if you have previously signed a contract on the said property and it was unaccepted any further offer and subsequent signing similarly waives cooling off rights in VIC

 

[Raddles]

Hi there Ozperp
just wanted to clarify - yes there is an obligation in QLD to disclose or quote fees where legal costs are likely to be over $750 - but it is actually incorrect to say there is a limitation of $750 as a result.

Writing as a lawyer and legal costs consultant, who gets involved in such disputes on a regular basis - I can say a lawyer is entitled to charge on a quantum meruit basis for work done. If there is no cost agreement - the work must be fair and reasonable - and reasonably necessary for the undertaking of the client's instructions. Where there is no cost agreement - before a lawyer can sue on their account - it has to be assessed and marked reasonable. In the past the party who would say the account was reasonable was either the Registrar of the relevant court (where there was a dispute resulting from litigation) or assessor's appointed by the solicitor's complaints tribunal. Nowadays, there are assessors who have listed their experience with the courts - and once have satisfied the powers that be of their experience - can now be appointed by the parties involved in the dispute or by the court.

Once the account is assessed - it actually becomes the equivalent of a judgment which can be sued on for recovery of the amount involved.

It is very important to put in writing what you want a lawyer to do - so there is no disagreement later.

As for the big firm/smaller firm debate - often by engaging a bigger firm - you will be engaging a team of lawyers which will end up costing more that a proficient person in a smaller to medium firm.
thanks

 

[Xenia]

Thanks a lot.

I am going to pay her, the bill is not too much. I just want to know it is normal or not to get such a letter. Because I did not expect at all that she would do the title search.
I used another solicitor firm when I made another offer, because this firm is bigger than hers, I presume maybe the bigger,the better?

I agree! If I had engaged a professional to look over a contract I would expect a bill and pay for it. That's just being fair in business!!

 

[Perp]

Writing as a lawyer and legal costs consultant, who gets involved in such disputes on a regular basis - I can say a lawyer is entitled to charge on a quantum meruit basis for work done. If there is no cost agreement - the work must be fair and reasonable - and reasonably necessary for the undertaking of the client's instructions.

Thanks for the clarification, Raddles!