Property doubles every 7-10 years?

If I can speak for young gun, in previous threads I believe he has said that he plans to buy in regional areas, not Melbourne or Sydney.

It would be interesting to see data on unimproved land values per square metre over time. Realistically it shouldn't go up any quicker than GDP, although I anticipate it probably has and is due for a correction back to that trend.

Cheers,
Todd
 
'bout the only theory I believe in as far as long term predictions go, is that everything eventually reverts to the mean !
 
Does a price or kilo tomatoes double in 7 years?
Does the price of electricity per KWh double in 7 years?

Even if it does, does it make us richer since we can pay for double the price?

Another way to look at it is that the AU$ buys double less in 7 years... now many will argue that inflation is only 3%, but we all know that is a lie.

It doesn’t matter whether we wish for the prices of property to double every 7 years. What it does is how much can people pay (and are willing to pay).
I can try selling my tomatoes for double the price in 7 years, but if there are no buyers then they will rot

Thx
V
 
Panic said:
Does a price or kilo tomatoes double in 7 years?

I can try selling my tomatoes for double the price in 7 years, but if there are no buyers then they will rot

Thx
V

Well the way I see it, you are trying to compare tomatoes with residential property. The population marches on and, Like they say "They aren't making any more land".

Tomatoes, on the other hand, are vegetables. :cool:
 
It's not who but how - where will the cash come from?

tropic said:
The question I have is, who is going to pay $740,000 for your house in Rockingham in 4-5 years time or even 7 years.
What is the average income in Rockingham?

I would rephrase the question.
It's not who will buy for $740k it's what will change so that the average mum and dad can afford to pay $740k??????

Inflation??
Wages

why would wages go up and how long will it take for them to increase to a level where people can afford the house?

it scares me sometimes, if inflation goes up I would expect interest rates to rise, therefore I should look at getting my cashflow sorted out so it can deal with paying the higher repayments that a 10-15% interest rate would impose.

Has anyone stuffed around with a spreadsheet looking at the affects of high inflation on wages?

cheers
quoll
 
Ray Brown said:
And how could it be true, working over the last 200 years gives a value of about 35c for a house worth $400K today.
cheers

I am reading Great Southern Land by Frank Welsh and in it he states that land in and around Sydney during 1825 was being sold off for 5 shillings an acre! :eek:

I had a quick search on the net and all I could come up with was a Farm Labourer in England during 1850 could earn 9 Shillings a week. So, even allowing for inflation over the 25 yrs it would appear that 5 shillings for an acre of land was pretty cheap!
 
For the past 25 years or so that I have been in the property market people have asked things like "what will change so that the average mum and dad can afford to pay $XXX?".

When I bought my first house to live in on my very own (as opposed to IP, which I did first) the price ($49K) was HUGE compared to the $18K I paid for an IP a few years before that. I thought "How am I ever going to pay back such a BIG loan?"

Two years later, my hubby and I decided to get married and we bought a house for $90K. Again it seemed an enormous loan.

My first house would be worth probably $400/$450K now ($49 x 2 x 2 x 2). It has gone through about three property cycles and has doubled every 7 years.

This is why we have just bought another IP. We know things will probably be flat for a long while, but while someone is helping us pay it off, we can wait for prices to slowly rise, as they always do.

Wylie.
 
The long view is the only view

wylie said:
For the past 25 years or so that I have been in the property market people have asked things like "what will change so that the average mum and dad can afford to pay $XXX?".
It's good to see a bit of perspective - like 25 years of it. Recent investors have only experienced the upswing part of a single cycle. They are either overly optimistic - forecasting a doubling every 4-5 years, or believe IP will never rise again because it hasn't over the last 2 years, and it's impossibly overpriced.

The long view is the only view.
 
Ray Brown said:
Well the way I see it, you are trying to compare tomatoes with residential property. The population marches on and, Like they say "They aren't making any more land".

Tomatoes, on the other hand, are vegetables. :cool:

I don’t think you are getting the point, so I will explain bit more.

Both are living necessities, just like food, a roof above ones head is a necessity. Now you are welcome to argue that one can live without tomatoes, but that is not the point.

As for longer view to property and it doubling every 7-10 year, I have to say that Australia is one of the few phenomenons in the world, which should say something too.

Thx
V
 
Ray Brown said:
Hi all you maths/excel gurus.

What is a formula that works out the above assumtion.

And how could it be true, working over the last 200 years gives a value of about 35c for a house worth $400K today.

is it 2^10 for double every 10yrs for 100 years???

cheers

property values increase by 2[sup](.1)[/sup]to 2[sup](1/7)[/sup] per year
2[sup](.1)[/sup] = 1.07177346 ~ 7.2% to double in 10 years
2[sup](1/7)[/sup] = 1.10408951 ~10.4% to double in 7 years

over 200 years for 3.5K base price

2[sup](.1)[sup](200)[/sup][/sup] = 1048576 * 3500 = $ 3 670 016 000.00
3.6 thousand million

2[sup](1/7)[sup]200)[/sup][/sup]= 398893554.61 *3500 = $ 1 396 127 441 162.55
1.4 billion
mathematical billion 10[sup]12[/sup] not american billion 10[sup]9[/sup]

exactly what it means I don't know, I just do the math but I think 7-10 years doesn't work in very long term
 
Ray Brown said:
Hi all you maths/excel gurus.

What is a formula that works out the above assumtion.

I reckon that as long as Australia continues to be prosperous, house prices will continue to double every 7 to 10 years.

Thats because everything else does the same! i.e:I nearly bought a Holden Hq in 1972 for $2000. I also bought a fibro house in Guildford NSW for 17K and a bag of chips was 15 cents. Lets see what has happened in 34 years:


1972 2006 increase

Holden HQ 1972 $2000 commodore $32000 16 times
Bag of chips 15cs more than $2.50 16.6 times
Fibro House 17K about 300K 17.6 times


My point is that my fibro house has roughly followed the trend of other items, which means that all things relative, everything , including houses should continue to increase as the cost of living creeps up.

The only difference is that the house is still standing whilst the other items have disappeared ;which made the house a terrific investment at the time!
 
cloclo said:
Thats because everything else does the same! i.e:I nearly bought a Holden Hq in 1972 for $2000. I also bought a fibro house in Guildford NSW for 17K and a bag of chips was 15 cents. Lets see what has happened in 34 years:


1972 2006 increase

Holden HQ 1972 $2000 commodore $32000 16 times
Bag of chips 15cs more than $2.50 16.6 times
Fibro House 17K about 300K 17.6 times


My point is that my fibro house has roughly followed the trend of other items, which means that all things relative, everything , including houses should continue to increase as the cost of living creeps up.

The only difference is that the house is still standing whilst the other items have disappeared ;which made the house a terrific investment at the time!

This shows that the house has (just) managed to protect you against inflation. That's assuming your living costs are a standard CPI basket; if they include many things that have exceeded CPI then you could still have lost.

If you were to have bought the house with $17k cash and had no tenants or holding costs then you would have preserved your capital but not made you anything in real terms. Doesn't sound like much of an investment does it?

But had you borrowed to buy it, put a tenant in and had to pay the holding costs (which is the usual thing people around here do), the exact same property would have done really well, despite its apparently unspectacular growth rate.

What's transformed a mediocre investment into a good one?

Two things: management (ie letting it out to contribute towards and eventually outstrip the holding costs) and financing*.

Another thing I think is really important, and it's seldom mentioned in the IP books because it's accepted as part of the economic 'furniture' (except for short periods in the 1930s, c1961 and c1990) is inflation.

This is because even if our property doesn't go up, if we've got a loan for it the real value of the debt owing falls by CPI even if no principal payments have been made (IO). Assuming the house holds its value (rises by CPI on average each year) then those two things are enough for a geared property portfolio to work (especially if rents balance outgoings or eventually do so).

To me the preconditions for IP investing as we know it to work are as follows:

1. Our economy has inflation (central bankers hate deflation as much as hyperinflation and will do anything to prevent it)
2. Over the long term our IPs appreciate at the inflation rate to stay the same in real terms (higher is nice but not a neccessary condition - to get the same growth you just need to buy more IPs!)
3. Affordable IP finance is available
4. There is a continued rental and sale market
5. The concept of private property continues to be accepted

The '7-10%' average growth figure seems to have entered the common IP lore and is widely quoted.

However there is a danger that such repetition clouds other issues, such as (i) insufficient appreciation of the good and bad effects of inflation, and (ii) insufficient appreciation that geared IP investing can still work even if prices appreciate by no more than CPI in the longer term.

Peter

(*) An old API article quoted Jan Somers as saying that financing was critical to IP investment performance, and I think I now know the reason why she said that.
 
Thank you thank you thank you Peter - many many Kudos for spelling this out again!!

Leverage and Predictability is how you make $$ in RE.

(And a little bit of Hard work, perserverance, action, and enthusiasm too)

T.
 
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