Property sale/purchase - should a breakdown of disbursements be provided?

[whimsical75]

I recently bought and sold some property. The solicitor/conveyancer has charged me a lump sum for disbursements on each property with no breakdown of costs. I asked them for a breakdown and they changed the description to list some disbursements but still provided a lump sum charge. When I asked for a cost allocated against each item (but said not a receipt, just a calculation of how it is made up), they got upset/angry and said their fee is cheap, etc, and why do I need a breakdown. They will have to go through all their files and by the time they add them up, add on phone calls and emails, it would be that amount.

Am I being unreasonable in asking for this? Should a breakdown normally be given? To me disbursements are reinbursement for costs incurred (like document searches) and not subsidising their professional fees.

Secondly, should phone calls and emails be a disbursement? A fixed fee should include for all that and disbursements are for additional costs only? You may be able to argue $0.20 a phone call if you want to be pedantic, but really?

Please tell me if I am right or am I just being a pain in the butt / unreasonable?

 

[alexlee]

Did you agree to a fixed fee before the work was done?

 

[whimsical75]

It was a fixed fee plus disbursements (a lump sum estimate of disbursments was given and they just charged that in the final bill).

 

[alexlee]

Do you think the disbursement amount is unreasonable?

If you don't plan on disputing the amount, is it really worth the trouble?

 

[whimsical75]

It's not "unreasonable" but I don't think it is right. Of the items they have noted it covers, I added up what the costs would be and the difference was over $150 overcharged (potentially). Times that by 2 properties and it's $300. Not massive amounts of money, but it is a lot to me (particularly when stretching to buy this new property). If it was $50 I wouldn't bother.

Where I work, when we charge disbursements, we even provide copies of receipts, so I guess I'm coming from a position where substantiation is normal. That's why I wanted to see if what I am asking isn't normal.

 

[Terry_w]

Were they a solicitor or a conveyancer. A solicitor should give you an itemised bill if requested. And if you are charged more than $750 a cost agreement and costs disclosure statement.

Generally no photocopying or phone calls etc are charged for conveyancing matters unless you are using a full fee by the hour type lawyer. I used to do this at a law firm I worked at, we just charged by the hour for everything including conveyancing.

 

[whimsical75]

They are a conveyancer...

 

[Terry_w]

They are a conveyancer...

Good luck. It is hard enough getting things out of them for a settlement.

 

[Raddles]

Hi there
if you are having trouble getting them to provide details of disbursements - there are 2 pieces of legislation which help
tis the Legal Profession Act which sets out the requirements for an itemised account and also
the Australian Consumer law (which provides a shorter time frame to comply)
If they are not responding to a request within 7 days for the Australian Consumer Law or 28 days for the LPA
then make a complaint to the Legal Services Commissioner
thanks

 

[cu@thetop]

I recently bought and sold some property. The solicitor/conveyancer has charged me a lump sum for disbursements on each property with no breakdown of costs. I asked them for a breakdown and they changed the description to list some disbursements but still provided a lump sum charge. When I asked for a cost allocated against each item (but said not a receipt, just a calculation of how it is made up), they got upset/angry and said their fee is cheap, etc, and why do I need a breakdown. They will have to go through all their files and by the time they add them up, add on phone calls and emails, it would be that amount.

Am I being unreasonable in asking for this? Should a breakdown normally be given? To me disbursements are reinbursement for costs incurred (like document searches) and not subsidising their professional fees.

Secondly, should phone calls and emails be a disbursement? A fixed fee should include for all that and disbursements are for additional costs only? You may be able to argue $0.20 a phone call if you want to be pedantic, but really?

Please tell me if I am right or am I just being a pain in the butt / unreasonable?

Let's look at this from the other side although I still need a bit more info.
How much did you pay for professional fees and how much for lump sum disbursements? If over $1500 in Qld they should have given you a client agreement/fee disclosure document and it needs to be in there. If under $1500 then they can't do "lump sum" disbursements and describe them as such. If they charge 5% of prof fee as postage and petties then it must be described as a professional fee and not a disbursement.

Should emails / phone calls etc be charged as a disbusement? They are not free to the lawyer- so perhaps it is reasonable to pass that on. Emails for example may cost 3 minutes of time to scan, compose and attach. If my secretary is paid $25/hr plus $2.25 super then it costs me $1.36 to send the email; not even counting capital costs of my scanner (4K + monthly service fee), my computer plus software plus IT fees etc. It all adds up

Lawyers are not allowed to charge extra to itemize a bill- and it is a lot of extra work even with time recording sytems as each item of work needs to be properly identified. I spent most of the Christmas break dictating a 38 page bill -work for which I couldn't charge a cent-so when a person asks for an itemization I grudgingly give them one (has happened about 4 times in last 7 years) and invariably extra work is picked up that was missed on the time costing- hence lawyers reserve their rights to charge more if you question the bill.

You have indicated that these people were conveyancers and not solicitors. There are no conveyancers in Qld. If they are not part of a law firm then let the Legal Services commissioner know as they are not entitled to charge a fee.

If a client came to me upfront and said they would want an itemized account I would either bump my quote up considerably or alternatively not take them on as a client. Having said that you have the right to an itemized break down of outlays.
As regards lump sum retainers (as is usual for conveyancing) there is only 1 item in the itemization of professional fees if they have stuck to the quote.