Realistic minimum land size for 3 dwellings

[Of The Vultures]

Those who have some experience in Perth development - what have you found in practice to be a minimum block size for building 3 villas/townhouses assuming a regular shaped block? What about 4?
Just trying to work out if you follow the council zoning to determine a minimum or are there also more practical considerations. Is it realistic to put 3 dwellings on a block <700m2?

Cheers

 

[westminster]

The minimum as per zoning requirements is pretty squishy and you usually have to give up something - ie a bedroom or use a single garage.

For me I like
R30 300sqm
R40 250sqm

Your other alternative if you have a block that you think is too small and is R30+ is to go with a multi dwelling as then you can do 2 bedroom apartments which may work better than 3 tiny villas.

 

[Archer]

Plenty of triplex double story townhouses in scarbs on 693m2 blocks. Rear lane-ways in existence though.

 

[DaveM]

If you talk to Aaron Sice, he can design you a 12 storey apartment tower with a retail food court, 4 levels of secure parking and a rooftop bowling alley that fits on a sheet of paper towel.

 

[Shahin_Afarin]

Depends on the area - in theory you can easily fit 3 dwellings on a 700sqm.

I had a client do 3 in 400sqm of space.

What it comes down to is the zoning for that particularly area - engage a town planner ASAP.

Regards

Shahin

 

[ket]

Min land size

Surely we are all missing an important point here, how many you can fit on is irrelevant, the first step is to find out what the market will bear. I would guess that there are not too many buyers who would want to be "squished in" if they are buying a place to live in. As for renters, you are probably limiting your market if they are too small and squished. Then of course you have to consider you ROI. But this all comes down to due diligence doesn't it? You would not consider buying until you know who your buyers are, what they want and then what you can do with the block.
An over simplification of a complex equation.

 

[Ideo]

How long is a piece of string?

It depends a lot on what individual councils allow, the zoning, what the market is after and long term trends in an area.

 

[Aaron Sice]

Surely we are all missing an important point here, how many you can fit on is irrelevant, the first step is to find out what the market will bear. I would guess that there are not too many buyers who would want to be "squished in" if they are buying a place to live in. As for renters, you are probably limiting your market if they are too small and squished. Then of course you have to consider you ROI. But this all comes down to due diligence doesn't it? You would not consider buying until you know who your buyers are, what they want and then what you can do with the block.
An over simplification of a complex equation.

i think you've overcomplicated a simple exercise, personally.

the "realistic" size is on that the market will take.

a 250sqm block where everyone else is doing 200sqm is called "undercapitalising" - a no-no in investment. if you do develop something on 250 whereby the surrounding values are based on 200sqm, then you are either giving land away for under cost - which is daft - or you are setting yourself up to have no comparitive sales data; in which case you are setting yourself to undercapitalise upon poor reflective valuations.

look at the zoning, work out whether you need CP and then work off the minimums for that zoning.

any thinking outside this square is fluff; emotive, nondescript thought processes that will sap your time and energy for next to no benefit.

of course, all of my argument is bunk if you plan to live there. then the emotions do come into play and you need to build/develop to a size that makes you happy...in which case no one person here will have that answer for you because

How long is a piece of string?

 

[ket]

min land slice

Too true Aaron.

Then of course you will be restricted by the land itself! Neither 200sqm or 250sqm will equally divide into a 700sqm block. And then there is the shape of the block, frontage etc. For instance a long narrow block is not likely to be any good for sub-div if you can't get a driveway down the side. Although I suppose you could put driveway and garages underground (think outside the square)?

But as has been said numerous times; it all comes down to what the market wants and until you know this there is no point looking at the blocks anyway!

So, overcomplicating a simple process? Yes in some ways, but there are a lot of factors to consider and some may find this complicated.
Keith

 

[Aaron Sice]

Too true Aaron.

Then of course you will be restricted by the land itself! Neither 200sqm or 250sqm will equally divide into a 700sqm block. And then there is the shape of the block, frontage etc. For instance a long narrow block is not likely to be any good for sub-div if you can't get a driveway down the side. Although I suppose you could put driveway and garages underground (think outside the square)?

But as has been said numerous times; it all comes down to what the market wants and until you know this there is no point looking at the blocks anyway!

So, overcomplicating a simple process? Yes in some ways, but there are a lot of factors to consider and some may find this complicated.
Keith

yes, true.

but most 728sqm lots are R40 and require 118sqm CP driveway.

that leaves 610 to put 3x 200sqm lots into - and with the setback concession to a communal street, youput the remaining 10sqm into the front lot to take into account the 4m setback requirements.

to me, that matches what the neighbours are doing and selling/renting. to me, that makes marketable sense. to me, that's not complicated.

 

[Of The Vultures]

Thanks guys, appreciate your replies.

 

[westminster]

The minimum as per zoning requirements is pretty squishy and you usually have to give up something - ie a bedroom or use a single garage.

For me I like
R30 300sqm
R40 250sqm

Your other alternative if you have a block that you think is too small and is R30+ is to go with a multi dwelling as then you can do 2 bedroom apartments which may work better than 3 tiny villas.

BTW these sizes were for single storey villas. I could do R40 townhouse on 200-220

Less than 700sqm for an R40 block wouldn't be ideal in my opinion for 3 single storey villas but 728sqm (a common size) is doable if it's a regular shape.

 

[Aaron Sice]

Less than 700sqm for an R40 block wouldn't be ideal in my opinion for 3 single storey villas but 728sqm (a common size) is doable if it's a regular shape.

668sqm attached....

724sqm "1 away form the corner" attached....

in "youknowwhere" suburb

 

[Shahin_Afarin]

Aaron its a massive shame that you are in WA and not Sydney.

You should consider setting up an office here.

Regards

Shahin

 

[westminster]

668sqm attached....

724sqm "1 away form the corner" attached....

in "youknowwhere" suburb

Yes but you had to put in tandem parking/ single garages which is not ideal so that is why I prefer slightly larger.

I had a friggin massive corner block at 805sqm for r40 which created a development bigger than norm. Over capitalisation? No because I got above market rents and valuations higher than the stock standard. But you don't need that much to develop something nice.

 

[MTR]

Opinions Please

Hi All
I am still trying to get my head around what is suitable, in other words what will make money.

Can the experienced developers give me some opinions, guestimate figures on how or whether this particular property would work or not. I have yet to get my feet wet so please feel free to help/correct me. These sites are very common in Balga, really looking for a template on how one would tackle this.

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-wa-balga-112898139

Build 3 units/villas

????
Purchase $390K
Stamp Duty $10K
Building costs: $510K
Holding costs: $30K
Total Costs : $940K

Sale price per unit - $360K

Profit: $140K

Thanks for your help

Cheers, MTR

 

[westminster]

Hi All
I am still trying to get my head around what is suitable, in other words what will make money.

Can the experienced developers give me some opinions, guestimate figures on how or whether this particular property would work or not. I have yet to get my feet wet so please feel free to help/correct me. These sites are very common in Balga, really looking for a template on how one would tackle this.

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-wa-balga-112898139

Build 3 units/villas

????
Purchase $390K
Stamp Duty $10K
Building costs: $510K
Holding costs: $30K
Total Costs : $940K

Sale price per unit - $360K

Profit: $140K

Thanks for your help

Cheers, MTR

I would estimate more along the lines of $600k to include demolition, DA fees, building fees, building, turnkey solution.

That block in particular I would be wary of having a sewer line very close to one boundary and on the rear boundary. It might require a lot of piling which can be expensive or not - depends on easements from Water Corp and building design.

Now when I compare it to the costs of Highgate I kind of kick myself for spending 1m on Westminster when Highgate will cost 1.2m and be worth more in rent and sale value. 2 very different kettle of fish but if I compare it in terms of dollars only Highgate wins hands down.

 

[sanj]

Hi All
I am still trying to get my head around what is suitable, in other words what will make money.

Can the experienced developers give me some opinions, guestimate figures on how or whether this particular property would work or not. I have yet to get my feet wet so please feel free to help/correct me. These sites are very common in Balga, really looking for a template on how one would tackle this.

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-wa-balga-112898139

Build 3 units/villas

????
Purchase $390K
Stamp Duty $10K
Building costs: $510K
Holding costs: $30K
Total Costs : $940K

Sale price per unit - $360K

Profit: $140K

Thanks for your help

Cheers, MTR

im yet to see any of the recent balga sites yield a good profit but i must admit im not active in the area.

if youre selling youll need to add selling agent fees, marketing and GST to the list. you also need to add demolition and subdivision costs to your list.

i guess you could do a multi development but i wouldnt recommend it for your first development personally. numbers are fairly tight for them in the area too although again, im no balga expert.

last year very profitable sites were absolutely everywhere, now they are a bit harder to find, although still around.

 

[westminster]

im yet to see any of the recent balga sites yield a good profit but i must admit im not active in the area.

if youre selling youll need to add selling agent fees, marketing and GST to the list. you also need to add demolition and subdivision costs to your list.

i guess you could do a multi development but i wouldnt recommend it for your first development personally. numbers are fairly tight for them in the area too although again, im no balga expert.

last year very profitable sites were absolutely everywhere, now they are a bit harder to find, although still around.

+1 for what Sanj said.

Whilst your sell price might be more than you estimated AND if prices keep rising it will be BUT I'm not seeing those areas as good deals at the moment. The building costs for Balga are pretty much the same as Westminster and Nollamara - the only difference is the land buy in price and the end sales prices. Sometimes its worth more to buy slightly nicer to get a better return but I'm not seeing any deals I would bite at.

 

[westminster]

Holy crap! This block is just up the street from my triplex

http://www.realestate.com.au/property-house-wa-westminster-112913343

$500k!!!! for 746sqm. You used to be able to pick up sites like that for $420 last year

The area really is moving.