realistically how far can the ASX drop?

Hi,

Austini,

I tend to agree with the holding of those types of LICs for the buy and holders, but still not a head in the sand approach to them. Just a little timing with them would enhance the performance greatly.

I don't think they are what Brenda is holding.

Nonrecourse, do you think that current conditions are the worst in the last 130+ years here in Aus??? Because that is what the market would be saying if it got to 2800. That would be a 60% correction. The previous largest corrections were 55% (70-74), 48% ('87 crash) 46% ('29-'31 crash). We are currently at about 49%.
Whoops only 24 points to go for 50%:eek:

bye
 
Hi, Austini, I tend to agree with the holding of those types of LICs for the buy and holders, but still not a head in the sand approach to them. Just a little timing with them would enhance the performance greatly....

Hiya Bill,

To clarify I only stick my head in the sand after purchase. When new funds are available I certainly do make an effort to time entry but don't spend lots of time on this. Essentially my buying motto can be best summed up by Buffet's "Be fearfull when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful and spread your buying over time". I hardly purchased any stock in 2005 - 2007 so was very cashed up when I started buying in 2008.

No single right way to do this stuff of course. No doubt your approach has been very profitable for you given your level of experience. Being lazy the LIC/index set and forget approach suits my lazy nature:D

In regards to my likeing for LICs I just noticed this article today:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/business/story/0,28124,24651529-5001942,00.html

Cheers - Gordon
 
Next stop gap will be around 2800:eek:
Nonrecourse,you seem to have the appearance of someone that has a 'vision' on what's going to happen shorterm,if the all ords drop to those levels 2500-2800 then some truly exceptional buys will be out there , plus i also saw a few black swans land in the river this morniong,and a rumour of a Martian invasion in Nth :eek:Nsw.. .lol.
..willair..
 
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Fifty percent of my portfolio is with diversified financials meaning they do the market trading for me as, hey, I am no expert. If one gets it horribly wrong then the other 3 should be able to stand up ok.

The other smattering of investments are what some of the diversified investments have been investing in anyway.

Not really anything there I need or want to sell atm so I just leave it alone.

Sector % portfol
Materials 8.60% BKW,WYL
Insurance 4.07% SUN
Real Estate 19.66% CWT
Diversified Financials 50.38% FXI,MLT,PPT,SOL
Food Beverage & Tobacco 16.13% SHV
Consumer Services 1.17% TAB
100.00%
 
Nonrecourse,you seem to have the appearance of someone that has a 'vision' on what's going to happen shorterm,if the all ords drop to those levels 2500-2800 then some truly exceptional buys will be out there


Either the market is offering some of the great buys of the decade or we've witnessed a complete collapse of trust in the chief executives of our cornerstone institutions.

From this article.

Any enlightened people care to make a call? Great buys or Collapse of trust?
 
Well I'll have a chat to my financial advisor....with the knowledge that no-one truly has a clue and discuss from there. I think I will cautiously enter the market.

Well, since you say you will be going into the market with borrowed money (i.e., taking equity from your properties) i would say that the "cautious" bit has already gone out the window.

think about it, how much interest are you paying on that money? 8%? so that means that you have to make at least 8% just in order to break even. That is a tall order in this market, where that equity could just as easily dry up and disappear.

if you are going to get into the market with a long term horizon (long term being 10-15+ years) i would recommend just dollar cost averaging into a low-fee, no load index fund. most managed funds fail to outperform index funds once you subtract fees, etc. some do much, much worse. if i were getting into shares i would look for the lowest-fee index fund, pop in the minimum amount to start it going and then dollar cost into it each month. it is the best way to limit your risk and limiting risk is the name of the game.

i would never consider getting into shares with borrowed money, though. it is simply too risky, even in a bull market. especially if you are an amateur investor--you are just asking for trouble. don't even think about the kind of things that buffett and his compatriots do--that is light years away from us mere mortals.
 
not that I'm enlightened, but I wouldn't form my view on a piece of trashy journalism.

Its hardly trash IMHO. Yields on banks today are at extraordinary highs if you believe their profitability will remain.

The comments from some of the analysts suggests they challenge the notion that their proitability and dividends will and can remain as high. Which in part is the reason they are being sold off.
 
Hi Rosewater, I don't think you're at all naive.

I'm about to do the exact thing that you're suggesting i.e. leverage my property to invest in shares except that I'm buying in the name of my superfund.

If the most gloomy predictions are correct, what can be done is buy on the way down. Many investors buy on the up but how we tell what's up? We only make educated guesses.

I was highlighting Aus shares at a time when there was no less a recession for years and years. In 1992. The AllOrds? Around 1100 - 1300

This was a strategy I was taught when I 1st started buying shares. Divide your money into 3. Use one part 1st.

This is what I'd do now. Buy @ around 3500 [looks like I'll have my wish]

If it drops 500 points, buy again. And so on until I come to the end of my funds.

Time will tell whether I have the discipline to stick to my plan!

KY

Have you got any examples of people who have made lots of money on continuing to buy a stock that is going down (Except short selling) ?

If I were you I would re-consider your strategy. To me it's like trying to catch a falling knife? Not many people predicted the current fall in ASX when it was around the 6800 mark? Everyone was talking 7000 by Christmas '07

I don't know your experience level and your investing skills. But unless I was half good as Buffet when it came to buying value stocks I would stay away from the market until the next boom cycle begins. Trust me, even if you enter a bit late you will get plenty of opportunity to make money.

To me, we are probably in the second stage of a bear market which is shown by falling company earnings. The last stage will be the distressed selling which is when you will hardly here anyone interested or talking about stocks anymore.

I am also very new to all this and have made mistakes and got paper losses currently. But I regard this as the cost to learning. Currently, I have decided to do nothing (which is also a decision). Watch the market carefully and learn as much as you can about the various stages of stock market cycle. Once you understand that you will have no problem recognising the start of the next bull market (Hint: increasing company earning, stock prices etc.)

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
Its hardly trash IMHO. Yields on banks today are at extraordinary highs if you believe their profitability will remain.

The comments from some of the analysts suggests they challenge the notion that their proitability and dividends will and can remain as high. Which in part is the reason they are being sold off.

Huh? Clearly I was talking about the journalism, not the yields on banks. The journalism is trashy. I didn't comment on the banks - there might be ladies reading :)
 
I don't know your experience level and your investing skills. But unless I was half good as Buffet when it came to buying value stocks I would stay away from the market until the next boom cycle begins. Trust me, even if you enter a bit late you will get plenty of opportunity to make money.

I watched the video interview Buffett did on 1st October. I wasn't impressed, frankly. He seemed to be damning the US with faint praise, talking his own book maybe. While I have great respect for both his wisdom and achievements, I don't believe "The Buffett Way" (as published) is a great model for us mugs to follow.

As for Be fearful when others are greedy and greedy when others are fearful, buy the wall poster by all means but don't think it is some sort of complete investment guide. It isn't.

I'm supporting oricle's post BTW. It was a good one.
 
The way the banks fell the last 2 weeks seems to suggest something is up. AFG and ABS went to administration, and there are many many more companies that look to be going the same way. The banks probably have considereable exposure to these, so probably plenty more write downs.

Having said that XJO bounced off the bottom of a channel today, so may find some suport here, but I wouldnt get my hopes up.
 
Have you got any examples of people who have made lots of money on continuing to buy a stock that is going down (Except short selling) ?

If I were you I would re-consider your strategy. To me it's like trying to catch a falling knife? Not many people predicted the current fall in ASX when it was around the 6800 mark? Everyone was talking 7000 by Christmas '07
yeah and now conversely now everyone is talking sub3000, if people were wrong before, what makes them wrong now, majority of people of sheep

I don't know your experience level and your investing skills. But unless I was half good as Buffet when it came to buying value stocks I would stay away from the market until the next boom cycle begins. Trust me, even if you enter a bit late you will get plenty of opportunity to make money.
yes this is a fair call

To me, we are probably in the second stage of a bear market which is shown by falling company earnings. The last stage will be the distressed selling which is when you will hardly here anyone interested or talking about stocks anymore. theres been plenty of distressed selling since january. Heard on from my source that citi group (aust) margin lending account has shrunk from $1.3billion to $400 million so far. Given the drop off in posts in hotcopper, aussie share forum, and in the number of people talking about buying in this forum, i think we are very much in the depressed stage.

I am also very new to all this and have made mistakes and got paper losses currently. But I regard this as the cost to learning. Currently, I have decided to do nothing (which is also a decision)fair call, often doing nothing is very good. Watch the market carefully and learn as much as you can about the various stages of stock market cycle. Once you understand that you will have no problem recognising the start of the next bull market (Hint: increasing company earning, stock prices etc.)yes but this assumption realises on the premise that we will get another 5yr upwsing. By the time you wait for upswings in earnings dont you think stock prices will be priced materially higher, and im not just talking 10-20%. Secondly this is exactly the sheep syndrome that suckers the majority into the market as its topping. As stocks continue to go up, as the good news continues to flow, more and more outsiders start comming in (with the false perception of safety), and this will peak just before the next slaughterhouse opens and so the game begins again.

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,
Oracle.

just my 2 cents worth.
 
Chilliaa, I think oricle (why don't you guys capitalise?) is closer the mark. My reading is that we are still only in the second stage bear, as suggested, and that by the time all this clap has washed through the system nobody will be talking shares at barbeques. After that there will be a long bull, starting quite slowly but from a low base. You young guys will indeed have a once in a lifetime opportunity, provided you don't jump the gun.

There will be no "panic buying" of people scared to miss the train (As suggested earlier today). PEs will be great on the surviving businesses. There will be ample time to decide where to place your bets. Don't get excited. :)

HC is still busy (At least I can still only read a small fraction of posts) but there has been a massive mood change. SS is unique in that it is the only place I see investors itching to jump in. To me this reinforces a long held belief that most here believe a +ve attitude will overcome, regardless of the sense of the basic investment. I'm too old for that rubbish. :(
 
Hi Sunfish
I enjoy reading your educational posts.
Back when All Ords were heading to 6000 I was very tempted to buy into the market. But having been burnt in stocks before I was very cautious. Believing that to many people were in the market and everyone at parties etc was talking stocks. Similar to how property was in early 2001/2002. I never did buy stocks
When the property market was the talk of the town and I had seen properties go to my magical figure of 1.8 x their bottom value before last boom i started gradually selling. My theory has allowed me to keep my head above water and leave something in it for the next guy. Sure i could have waited till 2.00 x value or above. But they say you do not go broke taking a profit.
I am looking next to stocks. But do not think i will be buying till i can see a long term trend after much uncertainty. Same opinion of property at present.

Gee Cee

Cautious Old fart:D
 
Here's another view courtesy of www.tridentpress.com.au (Lance Spicer)

These keeep appearing in my email (though am happy to read another view on the market)

"Wednesday, 19th November 2008


Déjà vu – Remember back in 2001-2 when everyone was panicking due to terrorist attacks and the tech bubble? Remember when everyone was expecting the world to fall into a deep recession? Remember when everyone was dumping stocks at any price?
Remember by the start of 2003, the market then started recovering? The economy didn’t for another 6 months.

Then, 5 years later, the market All Ordinaries Index had gone from around 2,700 to over 6,700 – Do you remember thinking back… “I should have bought some shares back then?”

Well, “back then” is NOW!

It's clear right now, the bargain hunters have entered the markets everytime the market panics. The closing low of the S&P 500 of October 10 is still in place after several retests now - this is very encouraging and it's now clear - this may, in fact, be the bottom. If not it's very close to it. Those bargain hunters are coming in late and buying, are picking up possibly the best stock buys of the last 40 years! In a year from now, they will be sitting on profits of 100%+. This market is not unique, nor are the actions of bargain hunters.

I wrote the following article in 2001 (yes, this has all happened before). A reader came across it and asked if it would be a good time to remind everybody that these stock market conniptions happen from time to time, and that they are either a disaster or an opportunity. It depends on your perspective and foresight, I suppose.

“There’s a degree of panic and depression out there among investors. Why? Haven’t we seen this all before? Yes we have—we have been down this road many times before. Many people ask me, should I be selling or should I be buying? Often, before I tell them what I would be doing, I tell them they can work it out for themselves, if they understand the share market cycles. The share market cycle works in 6 Phases until it all starts again. These cycles operate generally every 5 to 10 years. The current one we are in has lasted about 10 years. Let’s have a look at the 6 Phases before working out where we are right now.”

Phase 1
Recovery of Confidence
In this phase we have emerged from recession and business and consumer confidence is returning. Interest rates are at their lowest. The share market has been heading up for a little while now as savvy investors are returning to the markets in anticipation of improving company profits.

Phase 2
Earnings Increasing – Growth Returns
Those savvy investors were right—things are improving and companies are becoming more confident about their earnings. Interest rate cuts have now stopped and have reached a plateau. The bulk of investors are now returning to the markets, albeit a little late—all the great bargains are gone. This is by far the longest phase, it could last 5-7 years.

Phase 3
Irrational Exuberance
Consumerism is now rampant. BMWs and Mercs abound. Everybody is a stock market expert. “You can never have too much money in the market!” people will tell you. Markets are hitting records. Interest rate increases are on their way. The end is nigh!

Phase 4
Reality Bites
Interest rate speculation becomes reality and rate increases temper the markets. The share traders are exiting and starting to short-sell their shares. Smart investors start to preposition their portfolios and reduce margin. Consumer and Business confidence takes its first couple of hits, but remains relatively high. The markets start coming off over a period of several months. Some investors who missed the spectacular rise, dive in thinking this is a correction and an opportunity, sometimes it is, depending on economic conditions and when it is, their purchases will come good over a longer period than they first thought.

Phase 5
Earnings Decrease – Growth Slows
Consumer confidence drops as interest rates increase to temper growing inflation fears. Mortgage costs increase and ensure consumers stop spending. Businesses feel the pinch and expect earnings to fall. Pessimism grips the markets, there are dramatic falls in shares as the bulk of investors try to exit not realising it is all too late. Interest rate speculation starts again, only this time to cut rates.

Phase 6
Panic and Misery
The final phase. The heavily leveraged investors are wiped out. Business and consumer confidence is at its low. Investors are depressed. Talk of depression and recession abound. The Reserve banks are cutting interest rates with gay abandon. Company earnings are down. More share market falls and panic selling—the largest falls in the markets occur now. Too late to sell anything. The savvy investor lurks! He starts quietly buying all the panic stricken bargains. Company failures start to occur and bankruptcies increase. PE ratios are lower than their historical averages indicating this is the time to buy. Interest rates hit their lows and people start recovering a little. Some even start building houses again and the recovery into Phase 1 begins. Here we go again!

This is where mug investors who bought at close to the top in Phase 2 and 3 are starting to sell. Their adage, “Buy High—Sell Low”. Selling shares in the later stage of Phase 5 is pointless, you’ll be just losing money—patience and nerves of steel are required

This is how it works—time after time.

Now, where are we now? We are at the very start of Phase 6—you knew that didn’t you? So, to answer the question “What should you be doing when it comes to investment?” You now know the answer don’t you? Now you know how the cycle works, you can count yourself as a “Savvy Investor” and start buying up some bargains. Start by investing in the best blue chips, as they always recover first. US Markets seem to be the most over sold and most likely to rebound first, but I’m cheating here, the US market always recovers first. Just look at every crash and recovery. Good Luck. (written in 2001)

Isn’t that spooky? I wrote that in 2001….. and here we are in 2008 in Phase 6, but a lot further into Phase 6, actually quite close to the end and by early to mid 2009 we’ll be in Phase 1.


Click here to take Advantage of the Phase 6 Opportunity you missed last time


The Economy and The Market
The current market woes right now seem to be split 3 ways:

1) The market is being sent south due to the great unwinding of leverage. Leverage of hedge funds, some corporations such as banks and investors on margin. Once this unwinding is done, the selling will disappear. We are seeing this now in that the volumes being traded are very low. The problem for the market is that the buyers have yet to return.
2) Consumer confidence is very low and shoppers have put their wallet away temporarily until they feel that their jobs are no longer under threat. Consumer confidence is much higher in Australia than the US, although there are signs that US consumers are beginning to calm down. US housing prices seem to have bottomed, based on the latest data. All good signs.
3) Banks and financial institutions have taken a real hit to their balance sheets with bad loans, which caused them to stop lending up until October. In October, US banks lent $200B in new loans, which is higher than the total of the previous 6 months. So, they are lending again, but only to their best clients at this stage. The credit crunch officially ended when the LIBOR (interbank lending rates) dropped from 5% to around 1.5% - This is almost normal and it means the banking system is returning to normal. Again, good news.

This brings us to one other issue unemployment, both in the US and Australia. In US, they could be faced with unemployment stretched to as much as 7.5% early next year according to the IMF (who are traditionally bearish). Not, a depression, or even a bad recession with those numbers, you need 20%+ to qualify as a depression. In Australia, some economists are predicting a 50% increase! Sounds dramatic, but it will see our unemployment peak at just over 6%. For years governments have been telling us 6% is near full employment. For the last few years our unemployment rate of 4.5% has been seen as “inflationary”. Again, I see no reason for the widespread concerns about deep recessions or depressions. None of the numbers, point to this in any way shape or form. It seems the media is driving this – full stop – it sell papers and advertising. In Australia, our biggest export markets (excluding Japan) are still growing, so our exports will still increase, just not at the rate we have enjoyed for the last few years.

The IMF also said Australia won’t even have a recession just a “slowdown” to around 1.8% growth, so there you go!

So, why is the stock market getting slaughtered?

Sentiment…not reality. Oh sure, banks are having a bad time right now, making lots of provisions for loans that will default and lots that won’t. You see, I used to be a financial controller in several listed corporations and know when bad times occur, you always over do it and get all the bad news out in one go… over provide for bad debts, losses and other issues if the auditors will let you, so all you do is start reporting good news after one bad period. That’s what’s happening now with banks.
Also, China’s growth is slowing on the back of US consumer sentiment and therefore commodities have dropped. Is it all over done? What do you think? Of course it is.

We are bouncing along the bottom right now and we have had several retests of the lows as more bad economic news has hit us. Well, I have bad news, we’ll get more bad economic news, particularly out of the US and Europe for another month or so. After that, news will turn “neutral” or be “as expected” and then slowly turn slightly “brighter” into next year.

We are definitely on the bottom right now and I suspect that the downside could be a further 8-10% at worst (if for instance GM were to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy), and a bounce of up to 25% could occur just as easily over the next few weeks if any good news at all comes out…. And it will, even if it’s bad news, that is just not as bad as expected. The downside risk is very limited in my opinion. The risk of missing the upside is far more severe at these levels. With a market this low, not having some exposure to stocks right now is a big mistake. Having said that, you have to make sure you are in the right stocks.

Think about this….Ian Cumming, Jean-Marie Eveillard, Joel Greenblatt, Ken Heebner, Mason Hawkins, Mohnish Pabrai, Ruane Cunniff, Steve Mandel, George Soros and Warren Buffett….some of these names you know, some you don’t, but these are some the best investors in the world and run some of the very best managed funds in the world. What do they all have in common? They all bought large volumes of shares last week… massive in fact. I know exactly what they have been buying as I subscribe to a very expensive service that tells me what they purchase, and you know what most of them are buying? Many of the same stocks that are in my Trident Confidential Portfolio. They are buying “growth stocks” right when everyone else hates them. That’s how they will get rich (richer) when this chaos all becomes a blip on the screen and is retired to history… about a year from now. Take note.

This buying opportunity will probably last for another month or so, before the bad news starts to wear out or not matter anymore. Until then, we’ll see plunges on bad news (BUY DAYS) and rises when bargain hunters turn up anytime we get close to the 52 week lows as we have seen recently."
 
The true answer is we dont know how this will pan out. Nobody does, you keep saying there will be lots of opportunities, to see the trend reverse. This may be the case and maybe it wont.

I point to one situation: 1974.
The all ords fell for 7 straight months bottoming out at a drop of 67%. Over the next 5 months the market rose 40%.

So at what point would the market timers have come back into the market?
10% up: very much doubt it, after dropping so much they would have said its just a suckers rally, 20%: some might have started, 30%: a few more would now be brave enough, 40%??????
And of those that bought after it went up 40% did it continue to rise or did the market correct back downwards?

Another example where people got burnt was March-May2008. After dropping for 3 consecutive months the index started to trend positive. Many momentum players would have been caught in this trap and slaughtered most post May 08.

I do however respect your view about SURVIVAL of companies post this financial crisis.
Theres no point buying a company on a falling knife premise only to see that company go kaput, aka ABC learning, allco finance (BnB???).
In order to generate above long term market returns, you not only need to buy during depressed times, but you need the companies to survive. A 100% upside of zero is still zero:D
 
Hi Oracle, I know one person who has made quite a lot of money buying a share as it went down & buying all the way up as well. Me. Not showing off. Another person by name of Daniel, my friend, made heaps of money like that. He once lost a bunch when one exchange did some unfair deal & I asked him how much. He said, "About $250000, ha ha" . He actually laughed.

To be fair, I understand your point that one can lose everything. Have you ever counted the number of companies that totally delisted & shareholders got not a cent back?

I did, once.

QBE is one of those I've picked to buy. If you think this one will go belly up, please tell me.

Something else that I neglected to say is that I fully intend to pay up for the shares that I contract to buy i.e. I'll take out a loan say $200000, buy up to $150000 & pay down the loan in 3 years or 5 years.

The differential between interest on loan & dividend yield will be what?

Thank you for highlighting some points for me. Objection is fantastic because it makes me rationalise my intentions & as I answer your objections, my steps become clearer.

Probably won't make a huge amount, but it's far better than buying shares with the AllOrds at 6000 pts.

KY
 
Well, since you say you will be going into the market with borrowed money (i.e., taking equity from your properties) i would say that the "cautious" bit has already gone out the window.

think about it, how much interest are you paying on that money? 8%? so that means that you have to make at least 8% just in order to break even. That is a tall order in this market, where that equity could just as easily dry up and disappear.

if you are going to get into the market with a long term horizon (long term being 10-15+ years) i would recommend just dollar cost averaging into a low-fee, no load index fund. most managed funds fail to outperform index funds once you subtract fees, etc. some do much, much worse. if i were getting into shares i would look for the lowest-fee index fund, pop in the minimum amount to start it going and then dollar cost into it each month. it is the best way to limit your risk and limiting risk is the name of the game.

i would never consider getting into shares with borrowed money, though. it is simply too risky, even in a bull market. especially if you are an amateur investor--you are just asking for trouble. don't even think about the kind of things that buffett and his compatriots do--that is light years away from us mere mortals.

Hi Urchin

I have been following your posts , and you sound quite an intelligent person - investment wise , what would you get into ?

Property is no good , shares are stuffed , cash (interest) is about to be below inflation , where do you go ?
 
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