Separation / Divorce - Property issues

babushka said:
He said very little money is in that account at present.
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I'm not sure I would be believing him on this one.
At the moment, the money for my living expenses (food and household bills) still comes from our joint name account where his salary goes in and he said he would leave in place until he decides on what to do.

A funny thing was that when he moved out he said his mother lent him money for the deposit and first month rent! Our credit card bills are very high at the moment with him taking a holiday to Asia & Europe for 2 weeks (by himself) and all the new appliances he bought for the rented unit.
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Hmm....no wonder he is happy for you to use his salary at the moment. He gets a bigger benefit by having you jointly liable for the credit card, which I am presuming is a much larger amount than what you are drawing for your living expenses.
 
babushka said:
Skater: He said he opened a bank account in his own name because "if you die, the joint name account may be frozen and it is easier for me to access money for living if I have an account in my name only". He said very little money is in that account at present.

.... Our credit card bills are very high at the moment with him taking a holiday to Asia & Europe for 2 weeks (by himself) and all the new appliances he bought for the rented unit.
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Looks like he's very good at taking care of himself :mad:

Nice comment too about 'if you die' :rolleyes:

Please try not to feel sorry for him, it sure doesn't seem like he's giving you the same respect.

I get the drift that you still love this man, which is totally understandable after spending so many years together. I wish you all the strength you need to get through this difficult time & for the coming months where you will be sorting out all the financial stuff.

Regards,
M&M
 
babushka said:
I want to negotiate with him for me to keep the PPOR, and for him to keep the 2 investment properties. Yes, there are loans on these, but the rental income and his salary are more than adequate to cover the interest expense. The main advantage for him is the tax benefits from his high salary. To date, we have always been able to service all the loans from his salary alone.

Question: Does any forumite have a view on the above?

Thanks in advance!
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Sorry to hear of your situation. I did this myself in the last 18 months.
I just wanted to comment on the quoted paragraph. You need to look at the EQUITY you both hold in these assets, not their current values. It is the equity you split up.

For example if you almost own the PPOR, but have large debts on the 2 IP's, even if the combined value of the 2 IP's is similar to that of the PPOR, it is not fair for one party to receive the IP's and the other to keep the PPOR.

The valuations and his income are largely irrelevant. Calc the equity and split that 50/50 or xx/xx..
 
Thanks again, everyone, for your posts and support.

65fbk: Thanks for clarifying the net equity issues in a separation / divorce settlement. I do understand what you said and will keep it in mind when my ex gives me the financial agreement. At the moment, he said he would leave the joint bank accounts as they are, but he kept pushing me to sell our shares and properties. However, I am not doing what he has been asking (except selling one non-performing property in a regional NSW area) - based on the views of this forum.

M&M: You are right about my lingering emotional attachment to my ex. I had always loved him for over 30 years and it will be hard to forget him quickly! But, I have to face the truth that his heart is no longer in our marriage. It was true that he kept saying "if you die ..."

skater: The other day my ex said to me that he would need to transfer at least $2,000 from our joint account to his own name bank account each month to pay for his rent. I asked him why would he not pay for his rent directly out of the joint account? He did not answer me. So, I think he is up to something here?
 
babushka said:
skater: The other day my ex said to me that he would need to transfer at least $2,000 from our joint account to his own name bank account each month to pay for his rent. I asked him why would he not pay for his rent directly out of the joint account? He did not answer me. So, I think he is up to something here?
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Maybe you need to be transferring $2k per month to your name too, then.:D
 
Encourage him to go through a mediator with you. It's your cheapest and fairest option - reduces the need for solicitors and keeps you out of the courts.

Contact the family law courts to access one.
 
Yes, Fokas, I saw that one too. It seems all very one sided ATM, but not being there it is hard to judge.

Babuska, best wishes. Do not let him walk all over you. If it looks like he is syphoning off money for himself (which he probably is) then make sure you cover yourself. Remember he has had a long time to plan for this and he has obviously been spending money on his new squeeze for a while.
 
But to be fair - the new squeeze does sound hot to trot.

I reckon it'd be cheaper for all concerned to just let her shift in downstairs. Install one of those fireman's poles for quick access, and zippety doo dah. Job sorted.
 
If the extra account is innocent, he won't mind providing a statement history. Tell him you know it is over between you, and if he's spent money on his new girlfriend etc, you expect that, its no big deal, but you have a right to know how much of your joint money he has poured into this account, especially if it has been used to divert large amounts of money to prepare for this breakup.
 
babushka said:
.All were very helpful and I appreciated them very much. ...........................................................

... He has been very coy and secretive about the financial things. Since we are both financial literate, so both know everything about our assets & liabilities. My friends said to make sure he has no hidden assets, but I don't think he has. He had always been an honest person until 6 months ago when he started the lies.
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I am sorrry to hear of your problem.He is not the person you married .Divorce will bring out another side in him .
A lawyer will eat your savings up but in this case you must have one. I hope you can resolve this amicably and relatively after12 months seperation .
 
Thanks everyone for your continuing support!

My ex keeps the details of his (new) personal bank account in his office - so I don't see the bank statement and have no idea how much he has got in it. He is still mumbed about the financial split-up, only said he has been busy at work and had no time to see a lawyer yet. Some friends said to sit tight and be nice to him because he still allows me to operate our joint bank accounts and his credit card. If he cuts me off then they said I should start fighting for the financial agreement.

I know an acquaintance who is a mediator lawyer at the family law court. I have made contacts with him and he promised to answer some of my questions about the property settlement. I hope to see him this week. A friend also said he has a friend who was a former judge and he will arrange for me to meet this person to ask questions about property settlement. So, I am hoping to get a clearer picture of how things work.
 
Having one of my closest friends as a family lawyer, and having worked (as a volunteer) as a relationship counsellor, I would say few things are as cut and dried as they always seem, and there are very few hard and fast rules in divorce and family law.

I'm not saying this relates anything to anyone who has posted here, but when I was in Uni, one of my friends told me that his dad was leaving his mum for a younger woman. There was a lot of bitterness and recrimination in my friends voice and words, but I recall all through high school, going over to their house. Their dad was always there. Whether we were playing games, doing homework or just hanging out, he would join as often as he could, and he could cook dinner and talk to us about school and life. His mum, though present would wander out of the bedroom sometimes at 4pm, still in her night gown. She wouldn't say hello to any of us and would take dinner back to her room. Hadn't worked a day (or a night!) since the kids were born 16-18 years ago. Had no friends of her own, and no interests or hobbies.

Though I was young, looking back, I believe he tried. Tried very hard to love a woman that was disinterested in life. She was probably suffering very long term depression and refusing to get help. When the youngest child was an adult, he found someone else - a little younger - who shared the same passion for life he did, and moved out with her.

Though I believe marriage is for life, I honestly find it very very difficult to hold any kind of condemnation for him in my heart, despite him being a typical "left for a younger woman" man. He was a good man, who for at least 20 years, tried very hard.

Sorry if that story offends... Every time I hear condemnation for a man leaving for a younger woman, I think of my friend's dad and wanted to share it with you, so that people can know that condemnation is not always deserved.

I'm not going to give any legal advice, because some good advice has already been given here. However, I will give some advice from a relationship counsellor point of view.

1. Being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. Being bitter is not always the same as seeking revenge. Examples of more subtle bitterness can include:

1a. "I'm going to have a great life to show him I don't need him!" If you think that, then you're still tethered to him. You will try to do things that you think will make him think you're happy, not make you happy. Even if they do make you happy it's likely to be a happiness tainted with thoughts of him.

1b. "That woman is just after his money/just a fling/just a ..." You'll spend your life watching, waiting with a schadenfreude attitude. It might be true, but if you care, then he's still got a hold on you.

2. Cherish what you had together, but accept that there won't be any more. Some people would believe they just wasted 30 years of their life. But life isn't a destination, it's a journey. The aim was not to reach some imagined point together, but to journey together. It's not like you "have to" start that journey together again with someone else. You're at a different place to where you started, and you can find other journeys with other people.

Those years were in all likelihood full of joy, tears, intimacy, challenges, happiness, frustration - and all of them grew you or made you happy. Don't dispose of them. Recognise their value, and recognise that the season for making more memories with him is over. Find another partner to travel with if you want to, or travel this life with friends, or in solitude if that's what you desire.

I'll stop giving unsolicited advice now - not everything here relates to Babushka. In fact, most of it was from reading other people's advice... But it's worth thinking about, at least. Being married just 9 months, I hope I never have to think about it for myself.
 
Sunder: Thanks for your post. I agree that things are not always cut and dry in relationship problems and breakdown of marriages, as there are always two sides to the same story. Thankfully my ex and I are matured and intellectual people - we are both hardworking (I don't hide in my bedroom or stay in bed beyond 7am :)). During our marriage I believe we have achieved a lot of things together and shared all the good and bad times, and enjoyed many overseas holidays over the years. Now, like you said I can only treasure these in my heart and thank God that our marriage lasted more than 30 years.

For more than 30 years of our marriage, all our close friends and relatives observed we were a happy couple and considered him to be the perfect gentleman. So, what stunned all was that everyone knew him thought of him as the most morally righteous person and would be the last person to do what he did - he is a professed Christian and a deacon at our church! He told our pastor that he did not believe in our life long marriage vows - they meant nothing to him! He has now resigned as the church deacon.

I am still pondering the question why a loving and caring Christian person could (because of his lust and infatuation for another woman - and she has not stopped pursuing him) turn out to be the opposite of what he stood for most of his life. I never thought that one day he would behave like this - as if he was possessed by the devil.

On the weekend I have asked him again for the financial agreement. I think we are going to have a big fight over our home! He has sought advices from his divorced friends. I hope common sense will prevail, and not letting the legal eagles take us for a ride! :mad:
 
Oh Babushka,

How easily 'morals' slip when passion is in the driver's seat. (I wish I could bop him in the nose for you!)

His life, his choices. Time to make your own choices & stop sitting on the sidelines waiting for his next move.

Perhaps you should join the league of 'cougars' (how I hate that term!) & find a 30-something divorce lawyer to go dancing & drinking with!

"I hope common sense will prevail, and not letting the legal eagles take us for a ride!
" Ahhh, common sense, not that commen these days unfortunately.

What's the latest babushka?

Thinking of you & wishing you an abundance of good things :)
 
Thanks, mary&mat, for your thoughts. Things are at a stand-still as ex refuses to go and see a lawyer about the financial agreement. I think he is having second thoughts about the whole thing - he said he met up with our church pastor who has had a few words with him about life-long marriage!

This week an older friend from church (in her 80s) met me at the shops and said she was devastated on hearing the break-up of our marriage. She said she could not believe it, as we were always seemed to be such a "devoted" couple!

Last night a younger friend rang and talked for almost 2 hours to give me lots of advices on what to do :) - she said I must act "counter-intuitive". She has been to Anthony Robbins' course!

Another friend wrote me an email offering the following perspective: One day you will learn to accept that he is driven by the chemicals in his brains and perhaps say "good riddance"... at least you dont need to nurse him in his old age or to visit him in respite home or spend all your money on his medication and therapies. Perhaps at that time with no one to care for him, he may come crawling back to beg your forgiveness, but you have moved on and living happily with a nice younger man (than him) who loves you and care for you. Otherwise you may be travelling around the world doing good and being happy with no strings attached, but lots of close friends enjoying your friendship and love. Look towards all the beautiful possibilities and perhaps one day you can smile and "forgive for he knows not what he is doing". :D

On a more serious note, I am sitting tight for now - and will keep reminding him to get started on the financial agreement! Everyone said I should be nice to him until we sign the financial agreement, otherwise he may get narky!!!
 
i am sorry you are in this situation

however i think that sitting and waiting for him to tell you what the deal is......is pretty painful
why dont you write up your version of what you think is fair and get your lawyer to activate the necessary wheels so that some solution can be sorted and things can move on.
there are heaps of places to get free legal advice if you cant pay for it.
just keep ringing around and getting information where u can and put it all together

i wrote my own property settlement in such a way that he got as much as i did so that he would not spend forever arguing .
and i ended up with no child support (long story that :mad:).......but in the end i have come out of it much better off and much healthier than he.
my sister did the same and has a small amount of alimony as her Xs income was higher than hers and she was able to make him see the wisdom of acknowledging her huge contributions over many years:cool:

i did a settlement loooooooooong before i was able to divorce and bought the house off him and got him out.
as it turned out that was as well because by the time divorce came around the was a woman in his life with a HUGE agenda and of course a lot of power.
better to deal with finances when the power of another woman has either not developed so much.... or has waned.
because they will have their own priorities on what they think is fair for your husband to allow you

this much i have seen happening to both men and women

the rules should allow you part of his superannuation for starters and surely he has some of that.
the rest of it regarding your properties is too complicated for me :p

i think taking a moral stance and/or blaming the other party or demonizing them (as is so easy to do and so normal LOL) is not helpful.
your husband is doing this all by himself as he is lead by his hormones.
he is cunning as a sewer rat and setting himself up nicely.
allowing you a bit of his large salary is all very kind but it is what he has been doing for a long time so it should continue til the courts/mediators decide otherwise.

i always had to work and didnt have any super to benefit from unfortunately .
i always had my own bank accounts and credit cards and that is a good thing. i hope you have set one up for yourself by now and added a little something to it:D

good luck
 
Just to update:

I have been busy drafting the financial agreement - working out the net equity (after mortgages) - to give it to my ex with the hope that he will go and see a lawyer. If we both agree to it, then we can sign it in front of our respective lawyers, then file it to court to make it binding.

I have found 2 useful articles - not very detailed, but helpful. The most recent one is from Your Property Investment magazine (April 2010 issue) and here is the link online to that article - http://www.yipmag.com.au/articles/4312/default.aspx
Another article is from the Australian Property Investor magazine (August 2006 issue) - I read this from old copies of my API, and the online article costs money.

I have also contacted my accountant to confirm that there will be no stamp duty on property transfers and there will be a CGT deferral provisions - if the transfers are in a binding financial agreement (ie approved by the court).
 
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