shares over property,now.

I think the biggest and most important cycle in the share market is pictured in the gold/dow ratio. Financial assets versus hard assets like gold, oil and commodities. Fiat currency versus gold. Credit expansion versus contraction.

http://www.sharelynx.net/Charts/dowgold1900.gif

The two major turning points were the end of the roaring twenties and the go-go years of the 60s. I think we have completed a major turning point. I am worried about what I think is coming down the line. Gold at US$1500/oz DJIA 4500 would give us a ratio of 3.

Another good indicator is real rates of return. http://www.sharelynx.net/Markets/Charts/RealRates.htm When they approach zero and go negative gold and commodities go up. Or paper currencies go down and they can go to zero.

The CRB commodity index looks to have turned up strongly. Maybe stagflation like the early 70s?

Leading up to the 60s people remembered the great depression and didnt borrow so much. In peoples living memory debt was associated with bankruptcy. People saved for what they wanted. But now its been a long time since debt got a bad name. Now most people believe debt is good and have little fear of it.

Might be time to look at farms instead of city property.

Mr Turkey
 
I agree with Mr Navra on basing a company on the track record of it's management over xx years.

Another reason to invest in a company is if it undervalued (not cheap) thus has growth potential.

If the impending war casues good companies to be undervalued then perhaps it is a good time to invest (not speculate) in those undervalued companies.

Perhaps it is worthwhile investigating the contracts of senior management (CXO's) before buying into a company. There seems to be a lot of CXO's walking away with millions of shareholders money at the moment. Do the senior execs know something we don't ? Are they taking their money while the company is not completely broke ?
 
Hmmmm, AMP?

I shorted AMP at 12.13 and I'm still riding it down. You need to follow the flow and ride with the market, if it trends up you go long, if it trends down you go short.

Fundamentals that you read about are typically useless as the market has already factored in the price.
 
Sash M,

Can't wait for the war, then all your theories are out the window.
Oh what a loverly war( who said that!!!!).
Although you do sound like you know what you're talking about.

bbruham.
 
With regards to the above comments about war and the resultant sharemarket movements; I read a couple of interesting articles in the last few days which may be of interest.

The first by Annette Sampson entitled "History doesn't always repeat" also had a great little quote from Warren Buffet where he said:

"If past history was all there was to the game, the richest people would be librarians." Love it.... :p

The article/s were commenting on research that Russell Investment Management had done where they looked at some past crises and their effect on the US sharemarket.

The Russell research looked at a long list of 'crises' such as the Fall of France, Pearl Harbour, Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis, US bombing of Cambodia, USSR in Afghanistan, Iraq invasion of Kuwait, Start of Gulf War, September 11 etc and then how the markets moved immediately after......then 25 days later......65 days later......125 days later and 250 days later.

Extracts from the article:

"History clearly shows a pattern where investors take flight at the initial news of trouble, but the sharemarkets don't take long to rebound.
In some cases the initial falls take a couple of months to work their way through the system; in others the fall happens in a matter of days.
And in some cases the market can go through a period of volatility at the bottom before recovering. But the message from history is that markets do rebound, and when they do the moves can be both sudden and dramatic.
On average, the crises caused the US market to fall by 7.7 per cent and, 25 days later, it had regained half its losses. After 65 days, on average, the market was only fractionally behind its pre-crisis point and it had made substantial gains after 125 days.

[Note: A second article I read put the average Australian Market fall at 4.2 per cent compared with the US figure of 7.7 per cent....]

"Perhaps more pertinently, the firing of the first missiles in the Gulf War was actually greeted as good news by financial markets as it ended months of uncertainty. The market rose 3.7 per cent in the initial days and was 11.5 per cent higher after just 25 days.
Russel Investment Management managing director Alan Schoenheimer also points out that there are differences between this crisis and those in the history books.
This is the first time for example, that the bursting of a sharemarket bubble has so closely preceded the outbreak of war.
The bottom line is that trying to predict what will happen on investment markets over the coming months is a mug's game. No one knows.
History tells us that the sharemarket will eventually rebound, but as Buffett's words indicate, that's only part of the equation.
It doesn't tell us how long we'll have to wait, whether the market has further to fall, or whether the rebound will be followed by further falls.
'Using guesswork to determine investment decisions is never a good idea' says Schoenheimer"

A little further food for thought...........


:)
 
Hi,

The share pros I know will buy the day or day after the first bombs drop. But these guys are traders NOT investors.

Regards, Michael Croft.
 
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Shares are my main source of income. In calendar 2002 I made 45% and I had the house bet on it. I don't watch the news, read the fin review or share mags. So much in the media is specifically put there to deceive its too difficult to filter it out. I use general economic conditions, fundamentals and technical analysis.

Currently almost everybody is asking shares vs property. The answer is obvious, neither.

There is one asset class that is seems nobody wants. Nobody talks about. But all my experience leads me to. Its been building for a few years. Day by day I have sat through the boring accumulation phase of what is likely to be one of the most dramatic bull markets ever.

Firstly the money metals gold and silver. Then commodities.

Alternatively you can think of it as a bear market in government issued fiat currency. The dollars (us and oz) will be burnt to support asset prices.

At this point either the oz$ will go down (relative to gold not the us$) or your property prices will go down.

The US$ is the worlds reserve currency. Iraq changed from $US to Euros, look whats happening to them. This war is about money. The US is an empire in decline and is headed into a depression at an accelerating rate. We will follow. An empire in decline strikes out.

There is a chance that the US will shut down the borders, change the currency over internally and repudiate foreign claims. There is no link between fiat currency and physical reality. This has been the case for 30 years. In the big picture its a giant experiment. We have never been here before.

The Kondratieff winter continues.

Mr Turkey
 
Hello
I do not know very much about shares. I did read recently however that over the last 100 years, the average downturn in the stock market lasts about 12 years, considering we are about 3 years into the current one, there is a possibility of having to wait a long time before shares start to head back in the right direction.
Looking at the yeild of property at the moment, I would not touch that either. Im going to put all my effort into reducing my investement loan at the moment, so that when the time comes, and rents actually start to catch up to property prices, I will be in a good position.
Regards Adam
 
Ah Mr Turkey

I just love the doomsayers who come along to spoil the party with their words of wisdom and warning. I have heard this line that you follow for over 20 years and I'm still waiting. Are you following Prechter ?? He pushed this line a few years ago and called for the top in the DJIA at 3000, then 4000, then, then,etc. Maybe it's the Aden sisters who proved that gold was going to $US 4000 back in 1980!! The price at the time was south of it's high of around $US 850.

Let me see another little error in your calculations, the Fiat currency devaluing against hard assets. Let's assume inflation goes to 100% per month. My salary that is $50,000 goes to $100,000 then $200,000 then $400,000 then $800,000 then $1,600,000 all within 6 months.

My IP at $200,000 doesn't keep up with inflation and is only worth $350,000 then $600,000 then $1,100,000 then $2,000,000 then $3,500,000 again all within 6 months. Rents also went from $200 to $6400 in the same period.

OH and thats right, my loan of $200,000 went to $200,000 and the interest is fixed for another 4.5 years anyway.
So do you REALLY think I'm worse off??? I DON'T!!
May I suggest to you that you do some positive thinking about the future before you end up giving a great percentage of your net worth to the markets, and lose/waste a lot of time.

I,ve been where your at and I AM speaking from experience.

Bye
 
Originally posted by Mr Turkey
I don't watch the news, read the fin review or share mags.

So how did you know there might be a war coming?

Either you're aware of and thus responding to current events, or you're not, can't have it both ways :)

Originally posted by Mr Turkey
The US is an empire in decline and is headed into a depression at an accelerating rate. We will follow. An empire in decline strikes out.

There is a chance that the US will shut down the borders, change the currency over internally and repudiate foreign claims. There is no link between fiat currency and physical reality. This has been the case for 30 years. In the big picture its a giant experiment. We have never been here before.

I don't see any acceleration of a decline in the US from the figures, in fact I believe that the statistics show a mild recovery. Of course you could mean there will be a depression in the US sometime in the next 200 years (looking at your big picture)

Of course there is a chance that the US will shut borders, etc, etc, etc...but why???? There's more of a chance that Iraq will become a nuclear power (for about 10 seconds before becoming a cinder).

And of course we've never been here before, there is never a time when we have been :)

'Blessed are the Doomsayers, for they will never be proven wrong - just incorrect in their timing.'
Proverbs: 6547:132


Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Hi all

I guess our old friend Eric Snow is no longer hiding in the shadows.

He would have had a field day with this topic, perhaps his shares went south.


Simon H

;)
 
Sash,

Fundamentals that you read about are typically useless as the market has already factored in the price.

I really liked this statement, it made me laugh. Tell one Mr. Warren Buffett that, see what whether he agrees with you. Those fundamentals that you claim are typically useless have made him the richest investor in history. Think about that one. But then again, Mr. Buffett is just a four sigma event, isn't he?

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'
 
The Bacon,
Generally, a four sigma event is an unnatural phenomenon. In other words, some investors consider Warren Buffett to be a four sigma event, because they don't believe he or anyone can outperform the market as significantly as he has. In other words, they claim he just got lucky. Reading books like The Warren Buffett Way and Buffettology (which I am reading now, an excellent book, by the way, to understand Buffett you must read this) will shoot that theory to kingdom come.
Let me state here that I am not trying to rubbish Sash or his/her investment style, I assume it is working for them, and they should be congratulated for this, but to say that investing using fundamentals is useless really is a pretty silly thing to say, as it very conveniently ignores the fact that some of the worlds most successful investors (included the world's MOST successful investor) invest in this way.
To claim that the market is generally efficient and that stock prices are always correct also ignores the fact that in general the stockmarket is run by human beings that work on the greatest of human emotions - fear and greed. There are plenty of examples of stocks being valued too high or too low every day of the week. This hardly makes for an efficient market.

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'
 
G'Day all,

now lets see, what words of wisdom can i offer about shares and stockmarkets??

My only vivid recollection is that of walking past the Stock Exchange on a certain day in the late 80s and having to wear a safety helmit for fear of being hurt by a falling stockbroker or share investor that had jumped out one of the windows.

regards
 
Originally posted by TheBacon
Please explain...
>a four sigma event

Just to expand a little on Mark's comment in a hand-waving fashion...

It's a statistical term.
Given the assumption that no one investor was better than any other, then you'd expect their returns to be randomly distributed about some mean - the bell curve. The width of the bell curve is determined by 'sigma'.
Approx 99% of the investors would fall within ±3 sigma. Finding an investor outside this range becomes exponentially less likely given the original assumption.

Mark says Buffett is a 4-sigma event over many decades, so he is doing something right :)

Bradman was something like a 10-sigma event!

Mark, I've read 'The Warren Buffett Portfolio' which picks apart the favoured diversified portfolio of managed funds. It got bogged down halfway through in all this unnecessary crap - but that's the author, not Buffett. A book too far...

cheers, Tony
 
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