SMSF Investing

Howdy

So just got off the phone to a financial planner( originally trying to sell me life insurance)
One thing they did mention is Self managed Super Funds.
Now my partner and I are fairly young and for various reasons only have around 60K combined in our Super.
But the idea of being able to use this dust gathering money for property investing has my interest peaked.
I believe most banks will loan 80% to a company trust SMSF, with costing of 2k setup and 3k Yearly maintenance it could be doable to purchase a property.
To Bolster this cash we could salary Sacrifice to bring it up the deposit a bit.
Is this being done with so little in the fund?
The Tax Incentives for SMSF investing seems quite good.

Cheers
 
With only $60k to cover deposit and closing costs, will the type of property that you could purchase meet your expectations?

Will the fund be over weight in illiquid assets?

What is the exit strategy if one of the members dies unexpectedly or meets another condition of release?
 
$60k is nowhere near sufficient for a SMSF. No lender worth their license and that of any adviser is going to touch such a small fund. And I'm not sure you might find a property that costs under $240k that is an "investmnet" risk worth taking. (20% x $240k = $50K + costs) The costs to do a SMSF loan are around $6-$10k incl setup costs. Then the annual costs ....You will go backwards real fast. of fund, audit, tax etc etc agent, repairs etc You will go backwards.

You would also lose any (cheap) life insurance that is in your existing super. If you wanted life cover call your existing fund first.

Your first step with super is to change your attitude to it "gathering dust" and find an option that makes it grow. Its your future savings not some numbers on paper in a drawer. If it were cash I bet you would have a plan.
 
Thanks guys.
This was also more to get an idea as to weather or not I should be salary sacrificing and contributing funds to reach a satisfactory deposit.
Using a SMSF to invest in property seems more tax effective than regular investing.
Albeit there are exit complications, but we are talking long term.
I've also read a number of articles on how 50k might be enough, so thought I would ask.
Prefer to ask than to do nothing
 
You would need around $150k+ I think. SMSFs are very complex and costly to set up and run.

But, you maybe able to set one up with up to 3 others...
 
Thanks guys.
This was also more to get an idea as to weather or not I should be salary sacrificing and contributing funds to reach a satisfactory deposit.
Using a SMSF to invest in property seems more tax effective than regular investing.
Albeit there are exit complications, but we are talking long term.
I've also read a number of articles on how 50k might be enough, so thought I would ask.
Prefer to ask than to do nothing

You are doing the right thing by asking before you proceed. As mentioned, it really depends, and yes will help if you combine your super or contribute. But you will also have to consider if you are starting up an SMSF to purchase property, what sort of property do you want to buy. Assume with the current balance your preference is residential over commercial?

Do some scenario analysis. So if you are buying a property, you will need a 20% Deposit in superannuation to purchase a property, plus a cash cushion. Also consider the SMSF Set up costs (say $800) plus Bare Trust set up (say $1500-2000).

Next consider the loan - Fro resi-loans can take out 80% LVR, so consider the set up cost (application fee) plus legal fees for the bank if you choose 3rd party loan over related party. Please note that a number of the banks are waiving application fees which is great for our clients.

Based on the above, you will have a property price range in mind....then the selection process occurs. You can find the property yourself or engage a specialist to assist. Your choice.

Hope that helps! plenty to think about over the next few weeks! Important to seek advice during the process.
 
Thanks All
Indeed the Idea is to setup a company trust with 2 trustee's.
I think the Key in all of this is diversification.
I also asked as Parents are in a better situation with more cash and less time left to retirement.
I was quite impressed with the Tax incentives around Capital gains.
 
Thanks All
Indeed the Idea is to setup a company trust with 2 trustee's.
I think the Key in all of this is diversification.
I also asked as Parents are in a better situation with more cash and less time left to retirement.
I was quite impressed with the Tax incentives around Capital gains.

I think you mean:

Set up a trustee company with 2 directors?

(each member would have to be a director, so maybe 3 if both parents and yourself)
 
You would need around $150k+ I think. SMSFs are very complex and costly to set up and run.

But, you maybe able to set one up with up to 3 others...

Come on Terry,

They are not complex and costly at all. You just need to do your research and upskill your own knowledge before going into it.

I probably spend 1-2 hours max per year running my SMSF and I have never paid the usual over inflated annual costs others kick about like 2-3k

I often woner if accountants etc love stirring the drama around SMSF's so that they can justify the criminal fees they charge.

Regards

ScottyB
 
Using a SMSF to invest in property seems more tax effective than regular investing.

That's a common belief but its really not as true as you may believe. I often see SMSF that have bought a highly geared IP and it becomes a self-consuming ball of cashflow. Contributions are propping up the cashburn in the fund. All at a low tax rate...I cant see the benefit of negative gearing at 15%.

1. Super money is NOT personal money until you reach preservation age (55+). Counting your SMSF value as part of your personal wealth is a bit like counting your parents wealth as your own before they die just because you are their intended beneficiary. Same as with super. It might have your name on the statement but unless you die its preserved. Preservation must be one of the biggest turn offs about super. Sure make a $100K profit in the fund. Pay 10% tax...Yoohoo $90K after tax. Parked there until you turn 60?

2. The tax rate of super investment earnings is 15% v's typical personal rates of 32-46.5%. That looks appealing at first glace but if its a negative geared IP then its actually unappealing. Tax losses at 15% v's 46.5% ? Ouch.

3. Capital gains at 10%...Again looks appealling but if its in super its preserved so a couple in their 40s wont benefit from it....It stay in super until they can spend it in their 60's.

4. The best one is the "after 55" it can all be tax free... Yep it can be - A SMSF doesn have this unique issue all funds are in same position. Thats just a "bait" tactic.

Unfortunately most SMSF property investors are jumping in cause they see $XXX's in their fund and its an alternative cause they dont have personal wealth to enter the IP market. Just because you can doesnt make it wise to do it.

In that scenario I'm particularly fond of showing clients how they can PERSONALLY invest in a property along with their SMSF without a loan so they get personal neg gearing benefits at their higher tax rate while at same time SMSF pays little to no tax on its share...Best of both worlds. The key benefits of this style of strategy allows the individuals to get some tax benefits, allows them to build some personal wealth to maybe repay their home loan and also benefits super. Longer term strategies allow the SMSF to gradually acquire more of the property (using sal sacrifice also?) and individuals reduce their ownership. And its all compliant.

That far smarter than borrowing $$ in a SMSF at high cost cause some broker / property guy suggested its a great idea.
 
Come on Terry,

They are not complex and costly at all. You just need to do your research and upskill your own knowledge before going into it.

I probably spend 1-2 hours max per year running my SMSF and I have never paid the usual over inflated annual costs others kick about like 2-3k

I often woner if accountants etc love stirring the drama around SMSF's so that they can justify the criminal fees they charge.

Regards

ScottyB

I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Broadly from a distrance it is just a simple trust arrangement.

But digging a little deeper it a SMSF is extremely complex. Something simple such as determining who a 'related party' is sounds easy, and it usually is, but then work out could a SMSF acquire the property from the estate of a dead step sister - then it starts to get complex.
 
As far as I know, refinancing a property within a SMSF is still a no-no, and LVR is limited. Which means one of the most effective property strategies: refinancing to buy more, cannot be used in a SMSF.

While this doesn't make much difference for your mandatory contributions (it's not like you can get the money out before preservation age anyway), you really have to ask whether you should contribute extra into super in order to be able to invest in property, even though leverage is limited. In general, resi IPs work as investments because of the effect of leverage on capital gains. Limit your ability to leverage, and it diminishes your returns.

For amounts you would be contributing above the mandatory 9.25%, it might do better being invested outside of super. Potentially in a higher tax environment, but with the ability to leverage more, especially at the start.
 
As far as I know, refinancing a property within a SMSF is still a no-no, and LVR is limited. Which means one of the most effective property strategies: refinancing to buy more, cannot be used in a SMSF.

While this doesn't make much difference for your mandatory contributions (it's not like you can get the money out before preservation age anyway), you really have to ask whether you should contribute extra into super in order to be able to invest in property, even though leverage is limited. In general, resi IPs work as investments because of the effect of leverage on capital gains. Limit your ability to leverage, and it diminishes your returns.

For amounts you would be contributing above the mandatory 9.25%, it might do better being invested outside of super. Potentially in a higher tax environment, but with the ability to leverage more, especially at the start.

Refinancing is allowable. ie changing from one loan to another at a different bank. But the loan cannot be increased.
 
Come on Terry,

They are not complex and costly at all. You just need to do your research and upskill your own knowledge before going into it.

I probably spend 1-2 hours max per year running my SMSF and I have never paid the usual over inflated annual costs others kick about like 2-3k

I often woner if accountants etc love stirring the drama around SMSF's so that they can justify the criminal fees they charge.

Regards

ScottyB

Congratulations. First SMSF trustee I have encountered who understands what "self manage" means. Thats how its supposed to work. But in reality its not what happens in 95% of cases. You are one of the few. If you are married and your wife is a member I assume she is also fully committed to managing things alongside you. If not, your fund is actually mismanaged.

I'm offended you consider my profession to be criminals. Its quite the opposite since a single criminal offence is cause to hang up the certificates ! Thats probably based on ignorance, Certainly not an educated opinion. I have a large number of SMSF clients who have no idea about some aspects of managing their SMSF. They ASK for, and value the guidance, stragegies and support. Some ask very little and others a lot. Thats up to them. Have to say that of all clients I have never had one leave because they thought prices were too high or their expectactions were not satisfied. We endeavour to provide that advice at a fair fee. I'm unaware of a free service ...Let me know when one starts. Imagine it will need to be manned by people with an AFSL, Accounting degree, Practicing cert, PI Insurance, Legal expertise and lots of experince to start.

Generally those with very low SMSF costs are those with little $$. I generally see many people who use a SMSF to avoid the uncapped nature of findustry / public fund fees. SMSF fees are typically capped and unaffected by rising wealth so a fund with $2m will have similiar costs to a fund with $400K. The $100K SMSF doesnt see that though and they tend to be the very price sensitive ones cause they are in a gray area. So the clients who pay $3-$4k are often very happy having paid $15,000 or more for non-SMSF super previously....That often gets overlooked.

I also assist a large number of funds :
- Wives whose husband (etc) has hijacked their SMSF...See there is no regulatory safeguard for a SMSF so the only avenue is the courts.
- Death benefits & estate planning strategies
- Mismanaged with non-compliance because some trustee thinks its "his" money.
- Insurances
- Strategies, strategies, strategies....The true heart of the benefit of a SMSF.
- The related party issue - It and "in house assets" are a frequent issue and never as simple as you think. You have no idea how many SMSF trustees think its OK to buy BHP Shares when the members work for BHP...(as an example). Same people who also think its OK for the SMSF to buy auntie dots house from her estate when she dies. And these people are well educated and clever people like Doctors..
 
As far as I know, refinancing a property within a SMSF is still a no-no, and LVR is limited. Which means one of the most effective property strategies: refinancing to buy more, cannot be used in a SMSF.

Rule #1 is dont assume.. The above view is "generally" true. However there are ways for refinancing and for a SMSF to acquire a greater interest in a property that does not breach s66 which generally prohibits a fund acquiring more of an asset from a member. Also a way that allows 100% or even 105% LVR that complies. Its all in the strategies.

To take advantage of the permitted exceptions I would rarely ever advise a client to use a LRB facility. Way too costly, far to limiting and inflexible. LRB's are usually for the desperate and the ideal tool for spruikers looking for a fast sale.

I'm 100% with ASIC that recommendations about SMSF loans and buying property should be regulated under AFSL for this reason. LRBFs are too often a lender of last resort offer.
 
He's saying the fees are criminal (i.e. high), not saying that accountants are criminals...

Thanks Aaron you are correct thankfully, oh and Paul it is "our" profession not "your" as I am a fully qualified accountant and Financial Advisor although I ply my trade elsewhere outwith the murky depths of the 2 nowaday's.

Love how you automatically went on the defensive and tried to justify your fees, good to see some things never change ;)

Regards

Scott
 
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