so i got a bill for a blocked drain...who pays?

[fisherman]

Unless you have run a camera down the pipe to confirm that there were no mortar dags, rough edges, other catch points etc which may have contributed to the blockage you'rehard pressed to prove it.

Why would you be doing that where there is no evidence of blockage prior? Are there any tribunal decisions or rental tenancies authority advice to support?

Not arguing, but trying to clear the air. Those pipes were installed by a Gold Card tradesman and the government regulator and its inspector (who looked at the installation to approve) says that is enough.

 

[HotRod]

How big was the bill?

 

[DEC]

It is your responsibility unless you can prove the tenant deliberately caused the damage.

Over years icky stuff builds up on the insides of pipes, so sometimes an old pipe will clog whereas a brand new pipe will not.
Marg

What I find incredible is in my own PPOR I have never had a plumber out for blocked drains, I have never had to replace venetian blinds that somehow broke due to fair wear and tear, I have never had to replace broken roller door locks and handles and the list goes on of things my tenants manage to break and block several times over on near new properties.

I should point out that I have lived in my now 40 year old PPOR for 12 years.
How is it that I can manage it but tenants never can?

 

[HotRod]

What I find incredible is in my own PPOR I have never had a plumber out for blocked drains, I have never had to replace venetian blinds that somehow broke due to fair wear and tear, I have never had to replace broken roller door locks and handles and the list goes on of things my tenants manage to break and block several times over on near new properties.

I should point out that I have lived in my now 40 year old PPOR for 12 years.
How is it that I can manage it but tenants never can?

Agreed.

My wife says the same.

I think tenants generally don't care, knowing that a landlord will pay for it as it will work out that way every time as it is cheaper and quicker than going through some tribunal.

Just have to suck it up.

 

[Dazz]

I think tenants generally don't care, knowing that a landlord will pay for it as it will work out that way every time as it is cheaper and quicker than going through some tribunal.

Agreed.

In terms of plumbing problems, we never have any problems in the properties we selected, cos we have this little baby in our Leases.

The Tenant shall throughout the Term carry out the following repairs and maintenance:


(d) promptly repair, maintain and keep in proper working order and free from blockage plumbing fittings, drains, water pipes, sewerage pipes, toilets and sinks, to the extent to which they are situated in or under the Leased Premises and provide services or Facilities to the Leased Premises. If any approved modifications are made to the structure, such that more substantial drainage is required to adequately dispose of water discharging from rooves, the Tenant shall be responsible for any necessary modifications​

With the majority of properties you guys choose to invest in, you are prohibited by law from having something like that in your Leases.

The Tenancy Advocates and Lawyers working for free to protect Tenants have sweep the table clean many years ago. Looking for measly crumbs left on the table for the Landlord to nibble on after they've been thru and wiped it clean is on a hiding to nowhere. You're about 30 years too late to the party.

Just have to suck it up.

Agreed - if you choose to invest in the types of properties you normally do, this is your only option. Good luck with that.

We got very frustrated with the same scenario about 10 years ago, changed the types of properties we chose to invest in, and now we don't ever have to deal with this nonsense again.

It all goes back to your initial investment choice. You should have chosen the blue pill.

 

[Newbieatlife]

so is there any way to make tenants agree in writing that they are responsible for the maintenance and blockages of drains provided they are in working order from day one? or is this against some sort of tenancy act?

The cost of the problem is not the point is it? Its the principle of it all and that I feel its important to enforce a level of expectation, especially for long term tenants, to take some ownership and responsibility for the roof over their head rather than creating an environment where they feel they are entitled to take every little thing for granted?

otherwise there are many services that can cater for their needs like a hotel.

 

[Newbieatlife]

nevermind dazz answered it i think

seriously, id go commercial if i had the means...too bad im still at baby steps!

 

[Dazz]

so is there any way to make tenants agree in writing that they are responsible for the maintenance and blockages of drains provided they are in working order from day one? or is this against some sort of tenancy act?

you are prohibited by law


It cannot be any clearer.

 

[Newbieatlife]

thanks - I only read your post after I typed mine.

 

[fisherman]

All tenants know that the toilet is the correct and convenient repository for disposable razors, panty liners, synthetic wipes and dental floss. In fact any refuse that will fit through the hole can go there. Panty hose? Just pop it in. Gone in just a few seconds.

Similarly the vanity basin has a neat little hole for those cotton buds and little bits and pieces, if the walk to the toilet is too far.

The toilet and that storm water drain outside are the ideal places to dispose of used motor oil and solvents. No worries, the unfortunate tradie who lets a spark near any rise in the pipes maybe some years later should be looking out for himself, right?

What the tenant advocates and government tenancy regulators need to remember is that it isn't just the (presumed) well-heeled landlords who pay, there are flow on effects for the sewerage system and for the water cycle generally. One arm of government is unconscious of the effect on the other.

While some people can be a bit dippy, it is a stretch to believe that they have done similar things to their parent's property over the years. Tenancy advocates, regulators and tribunals are foolish and irresponsible to encourage tenant casualness, irresponsibility and lack of care. All should act as good citizens, and not pass the buck elsewhere.

While government should be educating all of the public on flushable items (incl what can go in grey water) to protect the sewage system and environment, all people have the responsibility to inform themselves so they do not act in ways that could put drains and sewage at risk.

Returning to tenants, no-one has shown that the owner is obliged to prove the ownership of items like long hair down the plug hole. It should be enough that the system was working as it should and was not mentioned on the condition report as faulty when the tenant commenced the tenancy.

 

[mystery]

Most tenants i have had consider its not their property,and its the owners responsibility.The joys of it all.I did draw the line when the PM got a call to get the electrician to replace some light bulbs.

This is an interesting one, .... We have a couple of IP's in SE Qld, ... apparently the tenants are entitled to ask for an electrician to change light globes at the landlords expense as it is an OHS issue if they have to get up a stepladder or on a chair. It can't be a handyman as they aren't qualified.

This was mentioned to us by our PM. She doesn't tell the tenants, but it is their right she said. It makes you wonder why we have to have $10 million in public liability insurance on each property if we still have to pay for a sparky to change globes in case the tenant injures themselves.

As soon as we go through another good couple of years of growth we are seriously considering selling the lot. It's getting to expensive with all the increasing holding costs and tenants lack of respect for rental property, ..... Maybe its a generational thing.

We have gone through a couple of years of just fixing up the mess that tenants create. Don't get me started on PM's ..... We have swapped PM companies so many times, but the lack of management is astounding, so you may as well just stick with who you've got as they all seem as incompetent as each other.

I have to go up to Qld to do a cleanup/reno on a property shortly. The inspection reports were coming in as "clean and tidy" and "good condition" etc, ..... The place is a filthy grease covered cess pit, and all the vertical blinds were seriously damaged and broken and a window box air con unit stolen, ...... the PM didn't even notice it was missing.

Anyway I digress, ...... Yes Jim1964, .... keep an eye out for the old "sparky changing the light globe ruse" ....

Mystery

 

[Dazz]

Don't get me started on PM's ..... We have swapped PM companies so many times, but the lack of management is astounding, so you may as well just stick with who you've got as they all seem as incompetent as each other.

Amen to that Mystery.

The ol' "if you don't like your PM, simply change them out" is a complete furphy.

As a landlord, my impression they give me is they compete with one another to see who can be least interested and most apathetic, whilst at that same time collude with one another on prices charged.

It doesn't help when you have agency advocates going around advising PMs how to convince Landlords that the services they provide are worth waaay more than they are currently charging.


At the heart of every situation like this in Australia is labour costs. Parts and time, usually $ 5.00 and 15 minutes, but it'll cost you $ 85.00 to have someone turn up.

 

[Dazz]

Returning to tenants, no-one has shown that the owner is obliged to prove the ownership of items like long hair down the plug hole. It should be enough that the system was working as it should and was not mentioned on the condition report as faulty when the tenant commenced the tenancy.

Renters aren't obliged to breath, let alone be responsible for anything else.

The law has been written such that the Owner of a residential dwelling is responsible for everything.

It is farcical how many times owners get on this website and ask dopey questions about why the Tenant isn't responsible for the cost of something. They clearly haven't read the controlling rulebook for the investment they chose, before they chose to invest.

The questions keep coming because the new Owners all naturally assume that their query satisfies their own judgement as to what is fair and reasonable.

The RTA in each state is nowhere near fair and reasonable.

All of their queries fall in that zone between what you would think is fair and reasonable, and what is actually written in the legislation.

Sorry to say, but when the majority of the legislation was written up in the late 80's, there were no Landlord groups represents. It was all for the Tenant's benefits.

Subsequently, despite the lopsided nature of the RTA, most states upgraded their RTA in the last few years, and you'll all be glad to know that some of the advantages Landlord's previously had have all been wiped off, and the rights of the Tenants have been beefed up further.

I know in WA at least, the upgraded legislation went thru both Houses of Parliament just recently without a peep from any Landlords.....a huge win for all Tenants.

Owning residential property and dealing with informed knowledgeable Tenants who strenuously apply the law to their fullest advantage.....yep, good luck with that - have fun !!!

 

[wylie]

What I would add to what is already said is that we had two visits from a plumber to a downstairs loo in an IP. First time it was sanitary items blocked by tree roots in an old clay pipe. We had that pipe replaced with plastic, no issues, it needed doing. Until these tenants went in, that downstairs loo was an old style, single flush. As soon as we updated it to dual flush we had issues.

Next time it happened the cause was tenants trying to use the 3 litre flush on the same loo. Plumber told them and us they must use the 4.5 litre full flush. He has problems with many modern toilets and says 3 litres will be fine but not for solids.

We paid that second bill too, made sure the tenants know to always use the full flush on this loo and they have accepted and agreed that any call outs that can be shown to be caused by the same thing will be covered by them. We will see what transpires.

If they don't pay, we will. Two plumbing call outs in four years with this tenant is not a biggie for me. We don't have many such issues. Maybe we have been lucky with tenants, but I think it might be that the houses we have are not the type that attract "low rent" tenants. I know that is a generalisation, but I think it is true. (I'd be guessing most of our tenants are on higher salaries than we are - at least that is true now that hubby is retired.)

 

[handyandy]

Agreed.

In terms of plumbing problems, we never have any problems in the properties we selected, cos we have this little baby in our Leases.

The Tenant shall throughout the Term carry out the following repairs and maintenance:


(d) promptly repair, maintain and keep in proper working order and free from blockage plumbing fittings, drains, water pipes, sewerage pipes, toilets and sinks, to the extent to which they are situated in or under the Leased Premises and provide services or Facilities to the Leased Premises. If any approved modifications are made to the structure, such that more substantial drainage is required to adequately dispose of water discharging from rooves, the Tenant shall be responsible for any necessary modifications​

With the majority of properties you guys choose to invest in, you are prohibited by law from having something like that in your Leases.

The Tenancy Advocates and Lawyers working for free to protect Tenants have sweep the table clean many years ago. Looking for measly crumbs left on the table for the Landlord to nibble on after they've been thru and wiped it clean is on a hiding to nowhere. You're about 30 years too late to the party.





Agreed - if you choose to invest in the types of properties you normally do, this is your only option. Good luck with that.

We got very frustrated with the same scenario about 10 years ago, changed the types of properties we chose to invest in, and now we don't ever have to deal with this nonsense again.

It all goes back to your initial investment choice. You should have chosen the blue pill.

Sorry to digress but I think the residential tenant mentality is trying to get into the commercial arena.

Interesting lease clause obviously part of a range to include all parts of the property.

I am currently leasing out my factory and the prospective tenant can't get his mind around the fact that this is not a residential lease and I don't want to give him cuddles all all care.

Thought I had addressed the issue before we progressed to a lease. Spell't it out that it is a gross rent plus maintenance. Prospective tenant gives a deposit and we draw up a lease. Now his soli comes back, 'Oh no we aren't going to agree' - Agh.

Prospective tenant comes back with a he said she said email and the REA who was handling the prospective is overseas.

All this for something that only generates just over 3 rents from units and is only a 2 year lease.

All part of my learning experience re commercial property.

Another week of waiting for the agent to return just to tell this prospective to flake off.

Cheers

 

[Ideo]

I rent one of mine to a plumber. Win. No issues with blocked drains on that one.

As a renter I've had 3 plumbing issues in 10 years.

First was a tree root blocking the pipes. Tried drain cleaner, plunger etc first, then called out the plumber.

Second was not really my fault, only had been in the property for about 1 month, but it was a blocked drain so I just did that myself with a plunger. Messy but also kind of satisfying. I just made sure I had it in writing from the PM that I could actually do something as I got in trouble from the first PM for attempting to fix the problem rather than just calling a plumber.

Third one was a very slow draining sink and toilet. Got the plumber out again, once again saying that if it was our fault we would pay, no issue with that. Turned out to be old clay pipes in the unit block had been basically crushed so needed to be replaced. Turned out to be a huge cost to the strata - because we were at the end of the line basically we noticed it worst.

Basically, the issue is a lot of PMs tell tenants not to do anything. Hell, I've contacted PMs to see if their were specs on a rangehood (no info in the unit) as the filter was filthy and clogged and needed replacing and I wanted to pop out and get a new filter and I was basically told to not touch anything. I know the costs associated with getting a "professional" out to do minor maintenance and wanted to avoid it.

It's a fundamental issue with the system imo. PMs are incredibly risk adverse which is a very Australian position. In much of Europe where long term renting is much more common there isn't the same issue.

 

[Dazz]

PMs tell tenants not to do anything.

I was basically told to not touch anything.

PMs are incredibly risk adverse

...absolutely, if you have a rich sugar daddy in the background willing and able to pick up the tab for everything, why not take the extreme risk adverse stance....

If Landlords are seeking another party in the contract to palm the responsibility and cost onto, for any issue whatsoever, they are certainly on a hiding to nowhere looking to both the Tenant and the PM.

There is no-one else at the table.

 

[Dazz]

Prospective tenant gives a deposit and we draw up a lease. Now his soli comes back, 'Oh no we aren't going to agree' - Agh.

G'day handyandy,

Don't you just love the brash confidence of solicitors, I wonder who teaches them that stuff ??

My only suggestion is to tell the Tenant and their solicitor to **** off, and start looking for another home for their business.

Whatever you do, don't start getting into this petty nonsense about you picking up the maintenance bill whenever they click their fingers....it'll never end.

You may as well stay in residential property if you put up with that malarkey.

 

[Peterw]

Renters aren't obliged to breath, let alone be responsible for anything else.

The law has been written such that the Owner of a residential dwelling is responsible for everything.

It is farcical how many times owners get on this website and ask dopey questions about why the Tenant isn't responsible for the cost of something. They clearly haven't read the controlling rulebook for the investment they chose, before they chose to invest.

The questions keep coming because the new Owners all naturally assume that their query satisfies their own judgement as to what is fair and reasonable.

The RTA in each state is nowhere near fair and reasonable.

All of their queries fall in that zone between what you would think is fair and reasonable, and what is actually written in the legislation.

Sorry to say, but when the majority of the legislation was written up in the late 80's, there were no Landlord groups represents. It was all for the Tenant's benefits.

Subsequently, despite the lopsided nature of the RTA, most states upgraded their RTA in the last few years, and you'll all be glad to know that some of the advantages Landlord's previously had have all been wiped off, and the rights of the Tenants have been beefed up further.

I know in WA at least, the upgraded legislation went thru both Houses of Parliament just recently without a peep from any Landlords.....a huge win for all Tenants.

Owning residential property and dealing with informed knowledgeable Tenants who strenuously apply the law to their fullest advantage.....yep, good luck with that - have fun !!!

Not sure how this comment helped the OP ?

Also could not help but think whether this comment would encourage, (if you were new to investing, and were unsure about "something",) you to ask a question on this website or not? I do know that there are a lot of successful people who contribute here, and I do think that the "majority" are residential investors. They do seem to be quite happy to share their early lessons to the "newbie", and some do "cough" when the "newbie" has not done at least some homework searching, but despite the "cough" do offer some positive assistance.

 

[Peterw]

you are prohibited by law


It cannot be any clearer.

Dazz, that is a great comment. Please give me the link to the legislative website that I can then use. Very much appreciated.