So which camp was right the doomsayers or the property faithfull?

I'd agree that governments won't sit on their hands in a crisis (though here in the UK they're putting off all the nasty public sector cuts until after the election), but I'd expect any stimulus package to take time to work through. Australia didn't go into recession at all.

I'd also agree that a lot of the D&G stuff is very dogmatic, and I think that there's a degree of wish-fulfilment in their predictions. (A sharp crash without any sort of economic fallout.) But those who are smarter than the average bear make some interesting and valid points.

(Hey, we're in agreement for once on a couple of things Keith. :))

I'm with Cloudyday in that I believe that the next few years could be tough.

If growth during the Noughties was funded by borrowing, then the next decade could be characterised by paying this down, and that might be the optimistic scenario.

(The pessimistic scenario is that sovereign states defaulting on their national debt triggers a second wave of the GFC, or that China goes bad. I'm only saying this so that I look like a genius if it all goes wrong. :))
 
It has been interesting to watch how everyone has reacted to the GFC. Being overseas, especially in Japan the news seems to be more international than just local as compared when watching it in Aus. I think both were partly right. The DG were partly right in regards to high end properties but the property faithfuls were also right in regards to lower and middle end properties. Without being a DG I think there is more to come, a second wave, and base this solely on what I'm observing in Japan. Japan relies heavily on its car industries which support many off shoot industries. The area I'm in was one of the hardest areas hit by the closures in the car industries and it still hasn't recovered. For those with cash there have been some unbelievable buying opportunities around and prices in quite a few areas for things like hotels etc have dropped 30%. To see another way how much it is still affecting business have a look at the physical amount of goods being sold and how prices are the same bar the physical amount is shrinking. Bottles that were 250ml now 200ml but same price, chocolate size down by 25% but same price, laundry soap 15-20% and the list goes on. What is left for these companies to do. If we have another sudden rise in oil prices I think the 2nd wave is going to be worse than the first.

Some Japanese companies have let go all part time and contract workers where as other companies are changing workers from full time to part time. In Japan part time workers although working the same hours as full time workers get none of the benefits, such as holiday pay, sick pay etc. I know of a few major companies that have fired all part time workers and contract workers whilst at the same time decreasing the full time staff by 20% and changing the rest of them to part time conditions. Most of these companies have no other options left. Japan appears to be a long way out of the woods contrary to media reports but for some strange reason keeps afloat. Time will definitely tell what happens in the future.

I'm no economist or number cruncher but just seeing it as it is at the moment, here in Japan. Don't know whether to welcome a second wave because of the cash bargains and opportunities etc or worry about the people who will be affected and lose their jobs, homes and possibly families.
 
I'd agree that governments won't sit on their hands in a crisis (though here in the UK they're putting off all the nasty public sector cuts until after the election), but I'd expect any stimulus package to take time to work through. Australia didn't go into recession at all.

I'd also agree that a lot of the D&G stuff is very dogmatic, and I think that there's a degree of wish-fulfilment in their predictions. (A sharp crash without any sort of economic fallout.) But those who are smarter than the average bear make some interesting and valid points.
I agree, there are lots of interesting & valid points out there from D&Gers...... however, they are mostly either outliers or ideological arguments or blinkered small picture thinking. The central case scenario is boring 'normal' growth.... it doesn't make the headlines & doesn't help the spruikers sell their newsletters.

(Hey, we're in agreement for once on a couple of things Keith. :))
:)

I'm with Cloudyday in that I believe that the next few years could be tough.

If growth during the Noughties was funded by borrowing, then the next decade could be characterised by paying this down, and that might be the optimistic scenario.
Sure the next few years will be tough for some (US, Iceland, Greece & others). But for those few countries that are perceived as low risk, with strong balance sheets & with a product that will be in demand for decades the outlook will be a lot brighter.

(The pessimistic scenario is that sovereign states defaulting on their national debt triggers a second wave of the GFC, or that China goes bad. I'm only saying this so that I look like a genius if it all goes wrong. :))
Sovereign defaults have happened before recently. If Dubai or Iceland or Greece go under then it's not a showstopper. The US is highly unlikely to fail, to bet on that you'd need to be offered extremely good odds.

The big picture for the next few years IMO will see the US muddle (or spin their way) through. China will divert a lot of their efforts towards internal development & become more decoupled & end up with a lot more international power. Europe will survive, although more states may need bailouts. And those suppliers to China will thrive.

The GFC is history - US & Europe need time to recover, Australia is already firmly in recovery mode, China et al are still growing & need us. House prices here won't fall in 2010, they'll continue to rise. Withdrawal of the FHOG is a furphy (investors & upgraders have already taken up the baton), IR rises will stop abruptly if there's any hint of consumer stress. OTOH if the RBA expects strong growth & high confidence levels, then they'll keep raising. The most likely bottom line is business as usual but with some extra volatility.
 
I think car prices, new and used, may take a dive in the next few mths, particularly given the reduction of the 50pc tax break for business.
 
I'm always wrong so please don't rely on anything I post :D

Cheers,

The Y-man

Tell us what you think though so we can make a bet the other way ;)

Just like if I ever buy (rare) or am given a scratchie ticket (more often), there's now more chance the winning one's still there at the shop, because I never get it..ever and have just improved your odds should you wish to get one :D

"The Property Faithful" were only "right" because of government intervention.

While I'm no bear (as I have my own property portfolio), let's call a spade a spade.

Huh :confused:

You only won the game, because you kicked the winning goal??

You only got 100% in the test, because you knew the answers??

PS the Bears are still out there, you just have to look

images
 
Keith, the trouble that I have with the recovery is that a lot of the problems that caused the GFC are still out there. Off the top of my head:
  • Interest rates at record lows. (OK, this is necessary in the short term.)
  • A bonus culture in the financial sector that encourages excessive risk taking to make a large return in a low inflationary environment.
  • The lack of separation between investment and utility banking. Government bailouts now mean that the taxpayer is underwriting risky properietary trading by the bankers. (That's actually a post GFC development.)
  • High levels of government, corporate and personal debt.
  • Trade imbalances (e.g. between China and the US).
I think that these need to be resolved for a sustained recovery.

There's a lot of talk in the media of it taking four or five years to halve the budget deficit in the UK, which makes me think that we're looking at a slow and painful recovery, rather than business as usual by the middle of next year.

I'd agree that Australia's looking better, that's why I'm considering moving there. :)

Dubai defaulting wouldn't be too significant a problem, but what about Japan (see this article) or the UK?
 
I'm no economist or number cruncher but just seeing it as it is at the moment, here in Japan. Don't know whether to welcome a second wave because of the cash bargains and opportunities etc or worry about the people who will be affected and lose their jobs, homes and possibly families.


I know I've mentioned this before, but how much stronger would Japans economy be without it's embarrasing farm sector? You have 3 million farmers on tiny silly little plots, and it's costing in excess of 50 billion a year to keep them. All for the privilage of Japan then having to import 60% of it's food and pay higher food prices at the till due to the tarrifs imposed on the imports.

If Japan had never subsidised it's farmers in the first place, millions would have went bust or left the industry, but now you'd be left with an efficient, dynamic, farm sector, a few hundred thousand farmers on sensible sized farms, and not being dependent on welfare.

It's up to Japan to fix it, because it will just get worse and worse and harder to fix, the longer it's left as is.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/world/asia/29japan.html?_r=1


.........."SHONAI, Japan — This broad coastal plain near the Sea of Japan, blessed with abundant water and rich soil and checkered with rice paddies hued golden yellow in the early spring, is one of the country’s most fertile granaries. But there is an unmistakable malaise here.

Ko Sasaki for The New York Times
A retired rice farmer in Yamagata in her greenhouse. Most of Japan’s three million farmers are older than 60.
The farmers who work the paddies are graying and dwindling in number. Abandoned, overgrown plots are a common sight. Because of how small their farms are and how far rice prices have fallen, many farmers find it impossible to make ends meet.

“Japanese agriculture has no money, no youth, no future,” said one farmer, Hitoshi Suzuki, 57, who stood on his 450-year-old family farm as an icy wind blew from the sea.

The troubles on the farm are emblematic of an overall feeling of paralysis gripping Japan, the world’s second-largest economy. Faced with mounting challenges from an aging population and chronic low growth, the nation has tried to preserve the status quo, in essence by burning through its vast accumulated wealth, rather than make tough changes, economists say.

“Japan’s rural crisis offers a glimpse of the entire nation’s future,” said Yasunari Ueno, an economist at Mizuho Securities in Tokyo.

To hear many farmers and agricultural experts tell it, rural Japan is fast approaching some sort of dead end, the result of depopulation, trade liberalization and depleted government coffers. They speak of the worst rural crisis since World War II. In Shonai, farmland prices have dropped as much as 70 percent in the past 15 years, and the number of farmers has shrunk by half since 1990.

Across Japan, production of rice, the traditional staple grain, has fallen 20 percent in a decade, raising alarms in a nation that now imports 61 percent of its food, according to the government’s Statistics Bureau.

Aging is seen as the biggest problem in rural areas, where, according to the Agriculture Ministry, 70 percent of Japan’s three million farmers are 60 or older. Since 2000, soaring deficits have forced Tokyo to halve spending on public works projects, which propped up rural economies, and plunging exports have now eliminated factory jobs on which many farming households depended for extra income.

While the current global financial crisis has added to the grimness, the root causes lie in Japan’s rural economic system of tiny, woefully inefficient family farms, which dates back to the end of World War II. But while many farmers and agriculture experts agree that this system is breaking down, change has been blocked by an array of vested interests and a fear of disturbing the established ways.

Mr. Saito and other farmers said the government also throws up barriers against the most obvious remedy to agriculture’s problems, the creation of larger, more efficient farms. The average Japanese commercial farm is now just 4.6 acres, compared with about 440 acres for the average American farm".........



See ya's.
 
Keith, the trouble that I have with the recovery is that a lot of the problems that caused the GFC are still out there. Off the top of my head:
  • Interest rates at record lows. (OK, this is necessary in the short term.)
  • A bonus culture in the financial sector that encourages excessive risk taking to make a large return in a low inflationary environment.
  • The lack of separation between investment and utility banking. Government bailouts now mean that the taxpayer is underwriting risky properietary trading by the bankers. (That's actually a post GFC development.)
  • High levels of government, corporate and personal debt.
  • Trade imbalances (e.g. between China and the US).
I think that these need to be resolved for a sustained recovery.
I don't. I think the examples you've mentioned will either resolve themselves or become the new 'normal'. None of them really apply to Australia - which is what this thread was about.

We'll never have a perfect world without any issues, there will always be some downsides that we've never encountered before. Things will change.... we will adapt.

There's a lot of talk in the media of it taking four or five years to halve the budget deficit in the UK, which makes me think that we're looking at a slow and painful recovery, rather than business as usual by the middle of next year.

I'd agree that Australia's looking better, that's why I'm considering moving there. :)
Congrats.... if you get here, you'll have a whole different outlook. UK will raise taxes or spend less or something else...... however, they're currently a sideshow.

Dubai defaulting wouldn't be too significant a problem, but what about Japan (see this article) or the UK?
Either Japan will default which won't be a surprise to anyone, or they'll work out a refinance deal, or sell some assets, or there's a tiny possibility that they'll cause the 2nd wave of the GFC.

Sure... Japan failing along with a dozen other 2nd tier countries is a possibility (although <1% IMO), but my central case (>75% probability) remains that the world will struggle it's way out of the problems of the last 2 yrs. Australia & China will be amongst those at the forefront... get yourself over here ASAP :).
 
Australia & China will be amongst those at the forefront... get yourself over here ASAP :).
I agree, apparently we are sitting on a gold mine
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-next-10-brics-2010-1#a-australia-2



Graemsay said:
Dubai defaulting wouldn't be too significant a problem, but what about Japan
Risk: If people are nervous about U.S. debt -- north of 10% of GDP -- that's where Japan was 10 years ago. Indeed, Japan's distinction as the world's most indebted country (some 220% of GDP) means near certain collapse, .
Factor in a rapidly aging and shrinking population and the "chances of ever getting out of their fiscal hole is now nil says Zeihan of Stratfor,"
The last time Japan faced a major financial problem, they invaded everybody," says Zeihan. "Something's going to happen, but I don't know what."

http://www.businessinsider.com/top-10-international-catastrophes-2009-12#japan-collapses-5
 
I'd also agree that a lot of the D&G stuff is very dogmatic, and I think that there's a degree of wish-fulfilment in their predictions. (A sharp crash without any sort of economic fallout
,
When is it ever any different,just look back over the past 10 years,how many downturns has there been over that period but the one standout has always been property ,maybe not for everyone that sold,but for those that
held their properties they would be miles ahead even if there is a reduction
in after tax benefits,and less"CG"over the next few years,I still think MrS Keen is right just his time frame and numbers are out of wack..
I still can't understand why everyone is worried about China,we have what they want and as they are starting to have serious control in some miners
and we produce 4 times the food we need so just those to simple markets
alone will keep Australia going, after all isn't trade among Countries like a game with some winners and some losers???:)..willair..
 
get yourself over here ASAP :).

Given that the temperatures in Manchester (where I currently live) hit -18 last week, it's very tempting. :)

I'd agree (again :)) that a lot of the points I raised should be resolved during the recovery. But I expect it to be a fairly slow and fragile process, particularly if individuals are paying down debt (as is happening in the UK) or governments are reducing deficits.

I don't think that we're out of the GFC yet. Most banking crises last for about two years (according to this paper), and we've had what appears to be an exceptionally severe one. Hence my concerns that things could still turn nasty.
 
It has been a while now that the dust has more or less settled since the upheival that was the "end of the world" otherswise known as the GFC had occured and given we are still here and the banks have no repossesed my house I thought I might write some words about who was right the doomsayers or the property faithfull.

Please dont interpret my flippant way of writting as an attemt to discount what occured during the GFC but like all good hysteria panics they are blown out of proportion. Further more people use such events and the media's exageration of it as a vindication of their own ideological views be it for prices to go up or down.

The views I refer to is the usual idelogical battle between the two camps i.e. those in the "property prices always rises" camp and those that beleive "property price is going to crash" camp.

So who is/was right?

For instance using the GFC as the clear modern day example, prices can fall. Ask any developer who tried to get finance during this period and they will say it was pretty hard to get valuations to stack up or any distressed seller trying to sell their house and how many viewings they got. Prices fell, sale figures fell and approvals fell across the board that is fact.

But this is nothing amazing, this is business and known as risk. Like ANY asset class prices go and and dow and sideways. So this event should have been a clear enough example to those saying prices always go up are wrong.

Finally? vindication for the doomsayers camp??, who use this event as vindication that the end is near that prices are inflated and property prices will collapse 20-30 even 40%.

The problem now is, that given time has passed, a mere 6 or so months, prices did not fall that much, if anything they have recovered so what are the doomsayers now saying?

If your a property supporter who is grinning at reading the last paragraph and saying "yep sucked in to those idiots they were wrong", just mentioning the likes of Steven Keen even makes me also want to insticively think the same, then you are wrong too. Basically you are no different from the doomsayers camp because no sooner than prices start to rise we hear the familiar parrots for for the other camp screaming that the skies the limit and boom times are here to stay and that "this time its different".

So who is/was right?

The answer should be clear, neither! Instead the large number of faceless and more importantly campless business minded people who were quietly adjusting their investment strategy based on the prevailing information were right. They understood simple economic principals such as cycles start and end and therefore taking advantage of the downside by picking up undervalued assets and now re-adujsting again for the prevailing up cycle.

So what I am saying is be smarter than the masses, see property for what it really is, an asset class, that goes up and down and that money can be made whatever stage in the cycle we are in so long as your decisions are business ones and not ideoligical ones.

Good luck in 2010, happy investing (or not).

PS: I am hoping for responses other/better than "but what about the USA and UK.."

No question; always a property faithful here.

not to say that you can't lose money with property - you can - but that is mostly due to an operator error.

No-one in the US lost money on a property they didn't have to sell. So, the key is in the money management and the cashflows.

If you don't need to sell, and can keep on holding on and stay in the market, buy sensibly and with minimum risk, there's no worries.
 
TC, yes we have had a similar discussion to this before. Unfortunately those type of articles don't fully explain the social and welfare system within Japan. The benefits handed out to the farmers is not just to protect the industry but are also welfare payments. Most are over 60 and as the pension is very little and for some basically non existent they keep farming. The govt could pay the money as welfare payments but then what would it be spent on? As farmers the money goes towards vehicles, machinery, fuel, work gear, etc and this is what is missing from those articles. So yes 50 billion is spent but the majority of it gets put back into the economy to keep things ticking over. Take away the farmers and you eliminate all the associated industries that rely on these farmers for survival. What do all these people now do that there are no farmers and no jobs. The answer may be welfare but then one needs to consider the welfare system in Japan. If for example you work for a company for 5 years and then you are fired. If you have being paying lost job insurance then you can get covered for maybe 3 months or a little longer. Once this time is up you get nothing and I mean nothing. If you haven't been paying into lost job insurance and you are fired you get nothing. If you quit your job for any reason you get nothing. Also a lot of these farmers are in small isolated areas and there isn't any work for them. What are they expected to do? Research has shown that Japanse people who continue to work and keep active have less illnesses than those who don't and are less of a strain on the health care system. The subsidy is not just about protecting farmers but about supporting a whole industry and providing jobs whilst lowering welfare payments etc.

Those articles also fail to mention exactly what is considered farming in Japan. One of the biggest industries that has never made a profit in any town or village is forestry and especially the farming of plantation trees. It is one of the biggest rorts in Japan but like a train out of control and just can't be stopped. You will find that a large portion of the 50 billion is part of the forestry budget of argriculture. You may also find that the 50 billion is yen and should be divided by 100 to get a closer amount to dollars so probably $500 million. Just to make the last part clear 100 yen if counted in cents and dollars equal 1 dollar or 100 cents which is why the Japanese figures always seem extremely high. Now if we pay each of those 3 million farmers 150 dollars each you now have 450 million dollars. If I'm wrong and the figure is 50 Billion dollars that's still only $15,000 per farmer or less than $300 per week about the same amount as a pension in Australia. Crunching number is not my strong point so if the numbers are out anywhere feel free to correct it.
 
If I'm wrong and the figure is 50 Billion dollars that's still only $15,000 per farmer or less than $300 per week about the same amount as a pension in Australia. Crunching number is not my strong point so if the numbers are out anywhere feel free to correct it.


It's 50 billion $US. That's what it cost Japans taxpayers to keep it's 3 million farmers subsidised.

If Japans taxpayers are happy to keep this donation up, then good on ya's all. Very generous I must say. Plus the extra it adds to food prices in Japan. Imagine it happening here? I don't think anyone would stand for that in Australia.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5233


See ya's.
 
Hi all,

Just returning to the topic for a moment. :p

The following is a set of quotes from a previous D&G poster in 2003, that is 7 years ago..

My favourite ones are the third last and last one, waiting, waiting, waiting...

If the anticipated 45-60% property crash happened now, the poster who made these quotes would still be paying more for most properties than if he had just bought in 2003.


Another undisputed fact is that Australia has the highest property prices in the world relative to income and no country ever stays on top of that list for too long and even then dont just slip back into 2nd or 3rd either.

I did the noble thing and admitted I overestimated the size of the fall and adjusted it down to 35%. WAs that appreciated?

I cant wait to invest in property again knowing what I now know. Unfortunately as more and more are finding, this is going to have to wait until prices come down to a reasonable level when an average property can be cash flow positive and negative gearing isnt the only way.

I'm going to upset some people and say I expect decline of around 45-60%.

I love property as an investment (just not now) and am fully cashed up ready to take advantage of some good prices.

It is pretty obvious that over the longer term the faithfull are clearly winning.

bye
 
So who is/was right?


I have a feeling some properties did crash 40% plus - you just had to be in the right place at the right time (or wrong place wrong time in our case) - like when I SOLD an IP in late 2008.

A house up the street (similar land size etc, but nicer presentation etc) went for $680k early 2008.

Spring 2008 and we had a shot - struggled - eventually sold for $450k....

I wonder if some people here wished they had bought that when I told them about it! :D

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
I know I've mentioned this before, but how much stronger would Japans economy be without it's embarrasing farm sector? You have 3 million farmers on tiny silly little plots, and it's costing in excess of 50 billion a year to keep them. All for the privilage of Japan then having to import 60% of it's food and pay higher food prices at the till due to the tarrifs imposed on the imports.

If Japan had never subsidised it's farmers in the first place, millions would have went bust or left the industry, but now you'd be left with an efficient, dynamic, farm sector, a few hundred thousand farmers on sensible sized farms, and not being dependent on welfare.

It's up to Japan to fix it, because it will just get worse and worse and harder to fix, the longer it's left as is.

i more look forward to the whaling fleet going bust this year and losing their current $10mil subsidy per annum ($164mil last decade alone) is they default for the fourth year running on their quota.

go sea shepherd. long live Ady Gil.
 
It has been interesting to watch how everyone has reacted to the GFC. Being overseas, especially in Japan the news seems to be more international than just local as compared when watching it in Aus. I think both were partly right. The DG were partly right in regards to high end properties but the property faithfuls were also right in regards to lower and middle end properties. Without being a DG I think there is more to come, a second wave, and base this solely on what I'm observing in Japan. Japan relies heavily on its car industries which support many off shoot industries. The area I'm in was one of the hardest areas hit by the closures in the car industries and it still hasn't recovered. For those with cash there have been some unbelievable buying opportunities around and prices in quite a few areas for things like hotels etc have dropped 30%. To see another way how much it is still affecting business have a look at the physical amount of goods being sold and how prices are the same bar the physical amount is shrinking. Bottles that were 250ml now 200ml but same price, chocolate size down by 25% but same price, laundry soap 15-20% and the list goes on. What is left for these companies to do. If we have another sudden rise in oil prices I think the 2nd wave is going to be worse than the first.

Some Japanese companies have let go all part time and contract workers where as other companies are changing workers from full time to part time. In Japan part time workers although working the same hours as full time workers get none of the benefits, such as holiday pay, sick pay etc. I know of a few major companies that have fired all part time workers and contract workers whilst at the same time decreasing the full time staff by 20% and changing the rest of them to part time conditions. Most of these companies have no other options left. Japan appears to be a long way out of the woods contrary to media reports but for some strange reason keeps afloat. Time will definitely tell what happens in the future.

I'm no economist or number cruncher but just seeing it as it is at the moment, here in Japan. Don't know whether to welcome a second wave because of the cash bargains and opportunities etc or worry about the people who will be affected and lose their jobs, homes and possibly families.


Japan is Australia's largest export market, 30% bigger than China and almost 3.5 times the size of exports to India.

People forget this because the phrase "trading partner" is bandied around with gay abandon. China is our largest trading partner but that is because it counts imports and exports and we import vast amounts of stuff.

The complacence around the emerging strife in Japan is astounding.....
 
Japan is Australia's largest export market, 30% bigger than China and almost 3.5 times the size of exports to India.

SNIP

The complacence around the emerging strife in Japan is astounding.....

Thank you for pointing this out TF. The importance of Japan to Australia is consistently under-estimated everywhere I look! Mind you, I'm not fully across the likely timing, mode and impact of their impending default. For example, on our agricultural and energy exports there isn't much "discretionary" spending - people still need to eat and keep the lights on. But their may be on other stuff - the WA rock lobster market in Japan has been trashed as a "canary in the coal mine" example.

So there are a few struggling rich rock lobster fishermen around these parts at the moment... :p
 
i more look forward to the whaling fleet going bust this year and losing their current $10mil subsidy per annum ($164mil last decade alone) is they default for the fourth year running on their quota.

go sea shepherd. long live Ady Gil.

BC,
We can only hope. Unfortunately, what most foreigners don't understand is the Japanese don't care if the whaling industry makes money or not. The majority don't get involved in govt spending the way we do in aus and things like budgets are never fully explained. As much as I do support the anti-whaling. Sea shepherd has gone about it not in the best way and the Japanese public back lash against whaling is turning into support. The media is very much controlled here and a majority of the reports are manipulate to make the whalers in the right. The what's next campaign has linked whaling to other controversial subjects such as territorial islands etc and US air bases in Japan. This linking is driving support to the whaling industry as the other 2 subjects are very much in the mindset of Japanese.

TC,
I think you overlooked the point I was trying to make. The farmers would get the 50 billion anyway most likely in some other form of payments as the majority is over 70 and eligible for the pension, and thus why Japanese don't care. Would you deny Australian pensioners $300 week to survive? I don't think you would and this is the context it needs to be looked at, not the way it gets distorted by media reports or those with agendas.
 
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