Socialism

[dan c]

Dazz,
you are right. No one will ever change their minds.

I can't stop laughing at this.

Well done for proving Dazz's point.

 

[evand]

Not pointless. Some people can learn from these debates. Not to mention they provide entertainment value.

Utterly pointless, the lot of it.

 

[Aaron_C]

Wouldn't it be fun, if they separated Australia into 2 divisions.

They did with Australia and New Zealand as there was a proposed union at federation. I guess we know what happened next...

 

[kathryn d]

They did with Australia and New Zealand as there was a proposed union at federation. I guess we know what happened next...

I'm talking about it in "real life terms".
Dole is available here...but not there
etc....

Didn't realise NZ was a part of Australia

 

[our obsession]

Dazz,
you are right. No one will ever change their minds.

Wouldn't it be fun, if they separated Australia into 2 divisions.
The right wings and left wings..and see who has the better society after 10 years?

Kathryn, you just got me interested, what do you make of this:

Nordic Model..

Seriously, I am interested in your opinion on it.

Brief intro only:

The Nordic model refers to the economic and social models of the Nordic countries (Denmark, Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland). This particular adaptation of the mixed market economy is characterised by "universalist" welfare states (relative to other developed countries), which are aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy, ensuring the universal provision of basic human rights and stabilising the economy. It is distinguished from other welfare states with similar goals by its emphasis on maximising labour force participation, promoting gender equality, egalitarian and extensive benefit levels, large magnitude of redistribution, and liberal use of expansionary fiscal policy.

 

[Ideo]

I can't stop laughing at this.

Well done for proving Dazz's point.

I don't think the irony of it will be appreciated.

 

[our obsession]

A bit of a brief rundown further is the people of many Eurpoean countries, ie especially the Nordic countries, are for example much better off than most Americans with more wealth per capita, better health care at a much lower cost, a cleaner environment, and better education.

Concerning I guess an argument re/ the degree of socialism in Nordic countries, they do have open markets, low levels of regulation, strong property rights, stable currencies, and many other policies associated with growth and prosperity.

It is widely known Nordic nations generally rank among the world’s most market-oriented nations.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

Ok,

To rephrase.

Just a tired old email cliche that is doing the rounds, spread by those who see any form of taxation as communism. It is a tired cliche that is well past its used by date.

It has been done time and time again.

How many of you have used medicare? Have a HECS debt? Gone to TAFE? Had children educated in the public school system? Being educated in the public school system?

Congratualtions. You are the product of the thing you are told by the right wing shock jocks (more U.S. based in fairness) you should hate.

ah yes of course, there should always be that strive for income equality within society.

So lets see on a global basis, which country has the best income equality???

 

[kathryn d]

I don't think the irony of it will be appreciated.

However, it still seems you are both still posting?

Dazz is entitled to his opinion.

Everyone else is entitled to mine

 

[our obsession]

...and just on Human Development, (us Aussies do fine too):

Norway leads world in human development..

Excerpt only:

Norway, Australia and the Netherlands lead the world in the 2011 Human Development Index (HDI), while the Democratic Republic of Congo, Niger and Burundi are at the bottom of the Human Development Report’s annual rankings of national achievement in health, education and income.

The report released on Tuesday by the United Nations Development Programme, says Pakistan at HDI 145 and Bangladesh at 146 follow India which is at 134.

The United States, New Zealand, Canada, Ireland, Liechtenstein, Germany and Sweden are in the top 10 countries, but when the index is adjusted for internal inequalities in health, education and income, some of the wealthiest nations drop out of the HDI’s top 20: the United States falls from 4 to 23, the Republic of Korea from 15 to 32 and Israel from 17 to 25.

 

[dan c]

I don't think the irony of it will be appreciated.

I'd say not.

However, it still seems you are both still posting?

Dazz is entitled to his opinion.

Everyone else is entitled to mine

 

[Aaron_C]

*makes swishing motion over head*

 

[our obsession]

So Canada rated well in that, I think even with inequality adjust'ts, how would you rank your home country in economic performance, and human development?

Just as a matter of personal opinion how you see your own place, that's all, no right or wrong...I'm quite proud of Australia, living here, the opportunities it gives me, the little tax I pay relative to the healthy assets I have built. (For my personal example..)

 

[kathryn d]

Kathryn, you just got me interested, what do you make of this:

Nordic Model..

Seriously, I am interested in your opinion on it.

Brief intro only:

OO,
From what I read..I don't agree with it
I do not do well with "politics" or "isms".

I have a strong sense of what is right and wrong, and what is fair and unfair.

I do not want a nanny state.
I want to be able to work hard, and keep a fair amount for myself.
I do not want to financially support people who choose to do nothing.
I believe in free medical treatment access, and schooling to grade 12.
I do not want people, or classes of people to be paid off, so they do not mingle with law abiding citizens.

People need to take responsibility for their own actions.
This rarely happens.

One example:
Someone drinks too much at the pub, they drive and cause an accident...they can come after the pub for serving them.

 

[kathryn d]

So Canada rated well in that, I think even with inequality adjust'ts, how would you rank your home country in economic performance, and human development?

Just as a matter of personal opinion how you see your own place, that's all, no right or wrong...I'm quite proud of Australia, living here, the opportunities it gives me, the little tax I pay relative to the healthy assets I have built. (For my personal example..)

Canada has the same problems there, as here.
We are very similar.

 

[Intrinsic_Value]

...and just on Human Development, (us Aussies do fine too):

Norway leads world in human development..

Excerpt only:

this human development index is a much broader brush.

oracles post was about income inequality.

So if the article is just right wing rubbish, with no underlying gain of truth, then surely which ever country is the lowest income inequality should be the model for which other countries should aspire to.

So all we need to do is look at the country with the lowest income inequality and then attempt to replicate them.

So which is the country with the lowest income inequality?????

 

[our obsession]

Thanks Kathryn.

 

[our obsession]

this human development index is a much broader brush.

oracles post was about income inequality.

So if the article is just right wing rubbish, with no underlying gain of truth, then surely which ever country is the lowest income inequality should be the model for which other countries should aspire to.

So all we need to do is look at the country with the lowest income inequality and then attempt to replicate them.

So which is the country with the lowest income inequality?????

It's far more complicated than following another country's model, but you realise that I'm sure. On your question, the answer is Norway. With the internal adjustments or not. Norway still rates first.

Australia holds is position 2nd also, that was also my point.

 

[our obsession]

...and remember, just how Australia is travelling:

It is true that the income of the wealthiest 10 per cent of households in Australia grew faster than the income of the poorest 10 per cent of households - the income of Australia's wealthiest 10 per cent of households grew faster than any other cohort in the OECD. But it's also true that our poorest 10 per cent of households experienced faster income growth than any country other than Spain and Ireland (who are now quickly reversing that growth with their economic woes), and faster income growth than the top 10 per cent of wealthiest households in *every other country*.

The income of our poor grew faster than the income of everyone else's rich. Just chew on that reality for a bit. Let it roll around in your head.

Australian Exceptionalism

Excerpt:

We're second, behind Norway, who knocked us off from our Number 1 spot at the beginning of the 21st Century.

So this is our economic reality - we are the wealthiest nation in the world with 75.5 per cent of our adult population making it into the global top 10 per cent, our economy has grown faster than nearly all others (certainly faster than all other developed countries), our household income growth has been one of the fastest in the world (including our poor having income growth larger than everyone else's rich!), we have the highest minimum wages in the world, the third-lowest debt and the sixth-lowest taxes in the OECD and are ranked second on the United Nations Human Development Index.

And this didn't happen by accident.

This happened by design.

This happened because of 30 years of hard, tedious, extraordinarily difficult policy work that far, far too many of us now either take completely for granted, or have simply forgotten about. We have, without even realising it, created the most successful and unique economic and policy arrangement of the late 20th and early 21st century - the proof is in the pudding. A low tax nation with high quality, public funded institutions. A low debt nation with world leading human development and infrastructure. The wealthiest nation in the world where even though our rich get richer, our poor have income growth so extraordinary that it increases at a faster rate than the rich expect to experience anywhere else in the world but Australia. A nation where we enjoy the highest minimum wages in the world.

But so many of us simply deny it - the conservatives deny it because it's more convenient to whip up hysteria about their political enemies. Filling the heads of Australians with complete lies for partisan advantage and not giving a pinch of the proverbial about the human damage that would be wrought if they ever succeeded in getting us to talk ourselves into a recession of our own making. That's not to mention many of their ideologues - denial is an absolute must when any acknowledgement of our actual economic and social reality would be to admit that their extreme policy fetishes are just ******* in the wind.

The broad left in Australia deny it, because to admit our economic and social reality is to admit that we've actually solved most of the big problems that other nations are still grappling with, and they had little to do with it. The problems we have left in Australia are difficult and sophisticated, requiring a level of thoughtful engagement far beyond the scope of occupying **** Knows Where in tents. If the US government responded to the Occupy Wall Street movement by implementing a large policy program that Australia already has - Occupy Wall Street would declare victory and go to the pub!

I guess it all goes back to without two extremes we have no middle...the middle has done just fine.

 

[Dan_p]

Utterly pointless, the lot of it.

People are passionate about politics and it gets heated.