Solar Panels for IPs?!

[wylie]

OK Wylie, bit tough. I am not questioning whether or not you were offered a good deal. peace.

I am questioning whether or not what you did is environmentally sustainable long term and how you feel about "subsidy bludging", "middle class welfare", "dole bludging", "tax avoidance", "franked dividends" etc.

If you go to the trough, you have no moral right to question others who do so as well.

I believe if everybody used solar panels, we could shut down a few power stations, so, yes, I believe it is environmentally sustainable if only enough people went solar (or any other system that has the same end result).

I figure we've paid taxes to help out the people on welfare for 40 years, and if you see paying $12.5K to have solar installed as "going to the trough" then that is your right. I don't see it that way at all.

I see it as paying good money to be able to claim back small bits of money, if we use our power carefully. We MAY recoup what we spend over ten years, or we may not. Hardly going "to the trough".

I see that a little differently to getting the Baby Bonus or still being in public housing 15 years after needing it, or getting the Dole for someone capable of putting in a day's work... no?

 

[Dazz]

I agree with you wylie.....it's your own capital you've earnt, paid taxes on and now wish to spend on your roof panels.

I can't see how that can be construed as "going to the trough".

The only aspect that Thommo could be refering to is if you are attempting to sell the excess power you don't use back into the grid and try and claim some revenue off the Govt.

I thought the main objective for a PPoR solar panel system was to simply reduce your power bill. Work out how much power you use, ask how many panels are needed to produce that, and go from there.

If you've purchased waaay more production capacity than you actually need, then once again, that is your capital you're spending....but you are then joining the Govt subsidy scheme to cream revenue back.....which is probably where this whole case of trying to justify the cost of the panels swings into play.

 

[wylie]

Thank you Dazz. I appreciate your reply.

We bought the largest we could, but with a family of four, it doesn't come anywhere near covering what we use, and to be honest, when we looked into it, and I found it just too confusing I was not motivated to get on board just to "make money".

However, when I got a call back, and we had someone explain it so much more clearly than any of the research I had done, I thought "Why not?. If we are going to go solar, we'll do it now while there is a feed in tariff as opposed to waiting another year or two and not having the tariff."

Perhaps if the government offered a small but significant tariff to everybody, there would be a higher take up of solar. If we didn't have the tariff, it would take us probably 20 years to pay it back, and I understand why that is not attractive to most people.

 

[Sunfish]

Two things Whyle, the "going to the trough" comment referred to high the FIT, not the instillation.

And if "everyone" had panels and they closed down some power stations, how are you going to cook dinner? Your supplier will not be able to meet the morning and evening peaks.

It's OK for Holland and Germany to be unable to meet demand during calm weather, they then import their needs [at high cost] from France's nuclear plants. Where do we plug in our cord?

Be careful pushing this too far, there are practical limits.

But I'm not out to upset people so I'll leave it here.

 

[nano]

An old man once told me he won't put up a solar panel because it might go broke when there's a heavy hail or storm. If there's no home insurance, that's gonna be all money down the drain. And if there's home insurance, the premium will increase because of that.

Comments?

 

[wylie]

Two things Whyle, the "going to the trough" comment referred to high the FIT, not the instillation.

Fair enough, but we'll have to agree to disagree that this is "going to the trough".

And if "everyone" had panels and they closed down some power stations, how are you going to cook dinner? Your supplier will not be able to meet the morning and evening peaks.

It's OK for Holland and Germany to be unable to meet demand during calm weather, they then import their needs [at high cost] from France's nuclear plants. Where do we plug in our cord?

Be careful pushing this too far, there are practical limits.

But I'm not out to upset people so I'll leave it here.

I don't have all the answers, but we have an abundance of sunlight here in Australia that is capable of giving us power and it is under-utilised. I guess that is why the government offered the tariff. To get people to pay a fair whack of their own money and get a little of that back each year in the hope they pay off the system before they need to replace it. Hopefully the ball keeps rolling, but honestly, with no tariff, I would not have done anything at this stage until prices come down further.

Not many people have a lazy $12.5K sitting around that might return them $1K each year. I cannot imagine how many fewer people would spend the $12.5K to get "nothing" back.

 

[Dazz]

Hi nano,


That huge hail storm we had in Perth during March 2010 certainly was a doozy. It smashed an amazing amount of rooves (the Landlord's in Ozzy Park literally had their rooves replaced for free !!).


Not to mention the myriad of cars that were damaged beyond repair.


Surprisingly, I haven't heard anything about the solar panels on the rooves, but I simply cannot imagine them surviving that onslaught.


I'm scheduled to see my insurance salesman in the next month. I'll be asking him the question about how many households made claims....if any.

 

[moyjos]

Hi nano,


That huge hail storm we had in Perth during March 2010 certainly was a doozy. It smashed an amazing amount of rooves (the Landlord's in Ozzy Park literally had their rooves replaced for free !!).


Not to mention the myriad of cars that were damaged beyond repair.


Surprisingly, I haven't heard anything about the solar panels on the rooves, but I simply cannot imagine them surviving that onslaught.


I'm scheduled to see my insurance salesman in the next month. I'll be asking him the question about how many households made claims....if any.

I would be guessing that "no news is good news" so if there was not a huge uproar, that would generally mean that solar panels were covered.?????

 

[wobbycarly]

I would be guessing that "no news is good news" so if there was not a huge uproar, that would generally mean that solar panels were covered.?????

Or there are so few places with panels that 2 fifth of 5 eights of stuff all panel owners barely makes a squeak?

 

[vaughan]

Hi nano,


That huge hail storm we had in Perth during March 2010 certainly was a doozy. It smashed an amazing amount of rooves (the Landlord's in Ozzy Park literally had their rooves replaced for free !!).


Not to mention the myriad of cars that were damaged beyond repair.


Surprisingly, I haven't heard anything about the solar panels on the rooves, but I simply cannot imagine them surviving that onslaught.


I'm scheduled to see my insurance salesman in the next month. I'll be asking him the question about how many households made claims....if any.

That's interesting because the insurers would probably pay out on the depreciated value of the solar panels, which would likely not be too much.

 

[Ed Barton]

What would you think as a dollar figure you would pay. We have one house, mid range for Coorparoo at $440 per week. If we put at $12.5K system on the roof the interest for that per year comes to about $15 per week cost to us as landlord.

Would you pay an extra $15 per week? The tenant in that house was offered a brand new kitchen for $20 extra per week and didn't want it. I suppose it comes down to what the particular tenant wants and is happy to pay for?

For an indentical house I'd pay half the expected saving in extra rent. If i expected to pay $20 less pw in power then I'd pay $10 more in rent. The changes in feed in rates for tenants renting now means the savings would probably be tiny.

No two homes are identical and I think solar is way down on the list of what tenants would pay extra for (or make more rentable).

I would not put solar on a rental.

 

[mikew]

Does anyone here seriously believe solar panels will get damaged in hail?

Massive solar power stations are installed or planned around the world, tens of $billions have been invested, countless tens or hundreds of millions of small residential systems installed globally, and you don't think anyone might have considered the chance of hail?

FWIW, solar panels are automatically included in home and contents insurance at no extra premium (I haven't heard of a case where this isn't true), as it is more likely to protect a roof from damage.

There's massive oversupply from China and a strong aussie dollar, so forget the 'green smell', do your numbers and see if it stacks up.

 

[Dazz]

Does anyone here seriously believe solar panels will get damaged in hail?

Mike, this isn't an area where a belief system is necessary. They either do or they don't. One's belief doesn't come into it.


Here's a picture from Melbourne, Dec 2011. In Australia and recent. Took about 2 minutes to find....


http://postimage.org/image/49ilihbxf/

Massive solar power stations are installed or planned around the world, tens of $billions have been invested, countless tens or hundreds of millions of small residential systems installed globally, and you don't think anyone might have considered the chance of hail?

I'm sure everyone considers the risk, it only takes about 5 seconds of thinking to realise sitting out there they are susceptible. The question is, does that risk come through ??

solar panels are automatically included in home and contents insurance at no extra premium (I haven't heard of a case where this isn't true), as it is more likely to protect a roof from damage.

Not sure about that, but I'm certainly going to ask my broker what their broad expereinces are. I'd almost fall off a log to here that an insurance company would be more than willing to take on the extra risk of the capital expense of replacing those panels at no rise to the premium charged. Have you ever met these lawyers who run insurance companies ??

It'd be a snowball day in hell when they are willing to take on extra risk for no reward.

do your numbers and see if it stacks up.

I think that is what this thread is about.....trouble is the full suite of numbers either aren't being provided, or if they are, they don't stack up.

 

[SENIOR]

I put a 5kw system a few months back all German system for 12.5k
live in Melbourne and in September it averged 17kwh daily
Retired so no more electric bills thats all I care about
Whether the numbers stack up or not doesnt worry me
To me coal is old technology and its a good feeling knowing the power you are generating is coming from the sun
I was told in 1995 not to buy ips. I did and have been retired for 5 years

 

[nrg2012]

Whether it stacks up depends on the tariff you are paying.

For most daily electricity supply tariff rates range from 11 c/kWh to 44 c/kWh (all ex GST). The net feed in tariff being around 8-9 c/kWh. The average residential is around 24 c/kWh

The LCOE (Levelised Cost of Electricity) is the benchmark that will determine if you make the investment or not. I have been using 13 c/kWh for some of the larger scale systems, however I use a low discount rate so your LCOE will probably be higher.

The LCOE can be a NPC/NPV will all your cap-ex/op-ex and financial variables added. Escalation rate of kWh is a good one, I currently favour 8% ^3 (yrs) then 3% ^22, this allows for the carbon tax, some network costs and inflation.

In real terms having 100% of the energy used on site will give the quickest payback. Can be low as 4-5 years, in most cases with minimal maintenance the system can provide low cost/free electricity for the next 25 years (with a couple of inverters replacements)

Systems <1.5 kW currently get a grant/rebate, above 1.5kW you will be paying full market price.

Check the meter install is included , this can cost another $300-$400.

There was a 50% rebate through AusIndustry for commercial premises, this looks like it is now suspended, which is a shame as this is where solar PV has its best economics.

With the hail, that is a rarity. The panels have pretty high engineering.

Cheers

 

[Sunfish]

I was reading about evacuated tube solar hot water today [may be better value for money] and it is claimed they will withstand 25mm hail.

Having only seen one hail storm in my life here in the tropics, I would be willing to take that risk.

 

[mikew]

Mike, this isn't an area where a belief system is necessary. They either do or they don't. One's belief doesn't come into it.

I couldn't agree more: for many people the numbers do stack up, and for others the numbers don't. If they don't stack up for you that's too bad.

Maybe I'm mis-reading your message Dazz, but you seem to be generalising your situation to everyone else with an outright dismissal of what I have seen to be perhaps the best investment many people have ever made, over 20% tax free in some cases (if only it could also be their biggest investment too), and to what others here have clearly stated it is an investment they are happy with.

 

[mikew]

There was a 50% rebate through AusIndustry for commercial premises, this looks like it is now suspended, which is a shame as this is where solar PV has its best economics.

Yes, the CTIP for manufacturers, it's been suspended unfortunately. Gov't really know how to screw things up.

 

[Dazz]

Yes, the CTIP for manufacturers, it's been suspended unfortunately. Gov't really know how to screw things up.

You guys certainly have a funny way of looking at things.

The economics of a situation is highly distorted by the Govt handing out 50% rebates....suddenly it's economic and everything is rosey.

The Govt is dead broke....with debts of 143 Billion racked up in less than 5 years and is half heartedly looking at ways of cutting spending.

The Govt chops the solar subsidy.

The solar "industry" suddenly falls on its face.

Conclusion.....it was never an industry to start with. Without large green subsidies, the industry cannot stand on its own two feet.

You just said it yourself.

 

[wylie]

There is an article in today's The Australian showing how the take up of solar is highest in the bush and the mortgage belt. Goes against those who say it is mainly the well off who can afford it who are installing it.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...nd-mortgage-belt/story-e6frg6xf-1226486161586

If you cannot read the whole article with the above link, then simply google "Solar shines brightest in bush and mortgage belt" to read the full story.