Subdivision help - has anyone successfully subdivided?

[italianstylezz]

Hi all,

I'm in the process of investigating the process for subdividing a property I am looking to buy and have heard so many horror stories about people spending so much time and money only to be refused by their local council, even after they have met all the requirements.
So far I have not met anyone who has successfully subdivided and sold the land, built on the land, or both...

Your feedback and hints/tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

[sunshine]

I have subdivided twice. First one took a while cause the neighbours objected. Council had a meeting at the block, they couldn't see any major issues so it was passed.

The other had no problems as we told neighbours first.

I would suggest (if you haven't already done so) that the first step would be to visit the Local Council and/or a local surveyor and find out what the requirements of the area are.

Good luck

Sunshine

 

[italianstylezz]

Thanks Sunshine

 

[Diamond-Finance]

What State are you looking to subdivide in?

 

[RumpledElf]

We've been called to a meeting with the council planning department on Friday. Our proposed subdivision will be non-compliant by 1m, but we've already spoken to them and, I quote, "well, we won't say no". Their development plan is very clear on the size of new blocks but very wishy-washy about the size of old blocks with houses on, barring the need for a driveway, and we're leaving the original house on our block intact. Our block is easily the biggest on the street, more than twice the size of most of the others.

This meeting is like being called to the Principal's office. I figure they're going to hammer out details, if it was a flat "no" now they could have just said so over the phone.

 

[Diamond-Finance]

At the end of the day you are dealing with a council.

However you have to realise that the council does want to help you meet all of the compliance as when you subdivide naturally they will earn more in council rates.

Even if there is a refusal you have the right to refute the decision ( section 82a ?? NSW) or depending on if you have used a planner to do the work they will know what to do.

If you were going to be refused they would not get you to come in they would just post you the decision.

We have a construction company that organises subdivisions and buildings for our mortgage clients

 

[lizzie]

done three and never had a problem - just made sure they were compliant, ticked the boxes, paid the fees (gasp) and was all done ...

 

[italianstylezz]

Thanks for all your responses.

Diamond-Finance - I'm based in Melbourne and fall under the Melton city council

RumpledElf - I'd love to speak more about this with you. Are you in Melbourne?
Sorry for my ignorance, but can you explain what non-compliant means in subdivision?

Lizzie - Was your subdivision based on a block with a dwelling already on it, or an empty lot?

sunshine - Thanks for your input. Can you tell me any other details about your experiences or any other finer details regarding the process that I might want to 'look out for' or provide any heads up? Also can I please ask what state you're in?

I looked at the Melton council permit plans register (which shows the full list of applications for subdivision for the last 12 months) and came accross a few properties that were close by that had applied for multiple dwellings to be constructed, so I took a bit of a drive passed all of them and none of the properties had any sign of 2 or more dwellings being built or constructed. Some of the applications on the register went as fas back as April 2008, so why wouldn't they have startedconstruction? Maybe they wanted the approval as leverage when selling - but the homes weren't up for sale at the time I checked. Maybe the application was refused? I'll be speaking to the council about it in more detail, but I'm still concerned as I haven't been able to locate 1 house in the area that has successfully subdivided and built another dwelling on the rear/side/front.

Cheers,


Rick

 

[lizzie]

Lizzie - Was your subdivision based on a block with a dwelling already on it, or an empty lot?

they were all dual occupancy - which probably helped - but at the end of the day the best thing you can do is go down to council with a rough plan of what you intend to do. sit down with one of the planners, talk it thru and make lots of notes. the duty officer/planner will tell you everything you need to do.

councils workers aren't the bad guys at the end of the day - really - they just want to do what's best for the community (except for parking inspectors). the planners would much rather sit down with you and go thru the proposal "before" you submit anything to council. it makes their job easier and less stressful than having to deal with a cranky customer because their expensive plans didn't meet requirements.

 

[RumpledElf]

RumpledElf - I'd love to speak more about this with you. Are you in Melbourne?
Sorry for my ignorance, but can you explain what non-compliant means in subdivision?

The house is in the Northern Areas council in SA. It is 1360sqm and has a 29m frontage. The development plan states that new freestanding houses must have 15m of frontage and be over 375sqm (I'm iffy on the sqm minimum because I'm so far over it) and you can't have any plumbing on another title. It also states that you need at least one off-street undercover park on new developments.

So we're non-compliant on some small and resolvable technicalities - we can make a new block with a 15m frontage over 375sqm with no plumbing under it easily by making a block that is 15m wide at the front and 14.5m wide at the back to go around the old house's septic tank which is inconveniently placed in the centre of the block.

The old house gets a 14m frontage (nothing in the development plan about this, but it clearly states 15m frontage for NEW builds) and has 5m of empty space down one side for a driveway where the one off-street undercover park criteria kicks in, requiring 3m of empty space down the side.

Basically we'd have no issues at all if the septic tank was 50cm to the left and the block was 1m wider. I should note that all the other old houses on the street are on 11-13m wide blocks and I've got this really out of place 29m frontage.

I've looked at other subdivisions in the area, they've let heaps through with < 1m variations to frontage and they've let some through that are slightly under the minimum area too, and the council themselves said they don't try and block development, they are pretty flexible. Won't know more until the meeting though.

 

[italianstylezz]

Great responses!
Your help is greatly appreciated.

 

[twodogs]

I've done a couple of sub-divisions in Sydney and have a few more approved waiting. Just get to know your local council's rules and the rest is straight forward. The LEP/DCP are usually online now and a call to the council should confirm the zoning. If you can buy zone maps, that makes your research easier.

As mentioned, the local surveyor is your best friend. Always check anything a council person tells you as they are often wrong for many reasons.

Per Lizzy, dual occ is the best for small projects. Not all councils will allow sub-division of dual occs.

Biggest traps I have found are
- rules change from when purchased to lodging plans
- stormwater drainage (if you get this wrong, may stop the whole plan or cost you a packet in pipes and easements)
- Sydney Water sewer connections (using the "approved co-ordinator" system, just jobs for the boys and a complete rip off)
- under estimating the cost. Most of my projects are not viable now, only later when the land value increases. Like the experts says, you make your money when you buy, even with developments.

 

[italianstylezz]

Thanks maniyak, I've estimated $15k for the basics involved - plans, council fees, surveyers, subdivision, but have no idea if I am required to do work for seweage or draining or any of the other possible things that cost a bundle...
I'm in the process of obtaining a copy of the section 32 and the floor plans then meeting with the local architect to get quotes.

Does anyone know what the worste case scenario would be in dollars?
Would the architect be able to know how much the complete project would cost (excluding construction)? If not, does anyone know who Would be the best people to speak to about total costs involved?
I'm having a really hard time getting a final figure, and I can't go ahead with it all unless I know it's within my budget - no use starting something I can't afford to finish.

maniyak what do you mean by zoning? I just thought that areas were marked either residential, commercial or industrial zoned?

Cheers,


Rick

 

[RumpledElf]

A lot of areas have different grades of residential zoning that limit what you can do, eg higher or lower density. The town my IP is in has a zone that is prone to flooding (which I don't have a house in! Yay!) so there are different regulations. My PPoR used to be zoned 'main street' and had less restrictions on business signage but the slackarses just shoved the whole town into one zoning last year and put the rates up.

Council should be able to give you a ballpark as to what the actual subdivision will cost. Mine told me $10-15k inclusive of surveyors, council and lands title fees, and I'll have to add fencing to that although I was just going to hire a posthole borer and do it myself. You don't need to get water or sewer connected here though so every other time I've mentioned this number I've been howled down by people who are paying $20-30k per subdivision. This might explain why land in this council ranges from $16k-70k

 

[sunshine]

sunshine - Thanks for your input. Can you tell me any other details about your experiences or any other finer details regarding the process that I might want to 'look out for' or provide any heads up? Also can I please ask what state you're in?

The subdivisions were in NSW.

As I said before, our largest headache was the neighbours. They came up with 10 objections which had to be looked at individually, hence why a special meeting was called. Some of the objections included loss of value to their properties, street parking issues, and the one we loved the most was that cars entering the new drive way would create noise to the bedrooms on their side of the house. It was interesting that their driveway did exactly that to their neighbours!!

I have found that the most valuable source of information will be a local surveyor (buy them a cup of coffee/morning tea) followed by the local council.

May be some useful tips on this thread.

http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33072

Sunshine

 

[italianstylezz]

Thanks Sunshine, luckily for me the land next door has already been subdivided and also another land 4 houses down
I've spoken to a few people in the trade and total price estimates have ranged from $15k - $30k, so I'll budget for $35k and see if my figures work out.
I was also told to speak to a builder as they would know more about the entire process and price than most... so that's the next step.

 

[Palabu]

Hi Italianstylezz

I am in the process of doing a sub-division within the Banyule Council area in Melbourne. I have received development approval from the council and we start construction next Monday. My suggestions would be as follows;

1. Speak to a local council planning officer and discuss your rough plans for the proposed site.
2. If council has no major objections to you plans then get in touch with an architect or draftsperson and discuss you plans with them. They should be able to give you some advice as to how many units you might be able to build.
3. In order for the architect to draw up plans to submit to council the block will have to be surveyed by a surveyor.
4. Once the plans are drawn up you will need to get a town planner to draft a report stating how the proposed development meets the councils planning scheme.
5. You will also need an engineer to draw up a proposed storm water system.
6. Depending on the council you may need to submit a landscape plan for the development.

Our draftsman organised the town planner, engineer and landscape reports for us. I don't have the exact amounts but from memory the draftsman charged $2,000 for the plans for submitting to council, the tower planner cost us another $2,000 the landscape $500, the engineer $1,000 and the surveyor $1,500. Council application fees cost us about $600 so in total the initial application for development approval cost us about $7,600.

I would allow a year for the development approval to be granted, councils seem to be permanently understaffed. Once you receive development approval you then have to get the development built.

Our draftsman drew up our working drawings once we knew we would get development approval from the council, that cost us another $1,000 a structural engineer was also required to provide calculations for the working drawings which cost $1,000.

We then started talking to builders and got some quotes based on the working drawings.

One thing I would do differently if I was going through the process again would be to speak to a builder before the council signs off on the plans because draftsmen and a architects like to design houses but sometimes don't take into account the practicalities of actually building the house. Once the council approves the plans if you want to make any changes to the exterior of the house you have to resubmit the plans to council to get their approval, this can take quite a while. A builder will be able to suggest where you might be able to reduce building costs with different choices of materials.

As I said I'm no expert and there are probably people on the forum who have done many more sub-divisions than me but this has been my experience so far.

Good luck with it all, at first it seems very daunting but with a bit of guidance you'll get there.

Paddy

 

[RumpledElf]

Well we've had our little council meeting, which wasn't all that helpful as the council doesn't actually approve subdivisions, its some board or other that does it. We got told that our electricity connection goes over the block so it'll have to be moved (and there's no poles to connect it to that don't cross blocks so this could be expensive) so we'll end up being the only house on the street that *doesn't* have an electricity line crossing a block. The house opposite has like 3 wires dangling across it but that doesn't count, its old.

We also got told that the house being on the boundary may be an issue as that's not compliant now, and they treat the 110 year old existing house the same as a new build in many aspects.

And we have to hire heavy machinery and a septic tank pumper and trenchers and keep the plumber around longer to move our septic tank 3m to the left - seems you need 2m clearance around a septic tank. Oh joy.

Council basically just told us how much surveyors cost and the surveyor will do all the work for us, and gave us the name of their recommended surveyor. The surveyor in question looks you up in advance and prepares a costing and information pack for you for free before you engage them.

 

[josko]

Sounds like you have loads of good advice. Everything has been said.

I can only speak from NSW, and every state has so many different requirements etc.

Good luck.

Regards JO

 

[evisional]

I have an existing house on a big lot of land in Whitehorse City, VIC and would like to keep the existing house and subdivide the land into 2-3 lots. I want to sell each lot separately.

I am new to subdivision and start doing research on the Whitehorse Council's website. There are two following checklists found on the website and make me confused their meanings:

1) "Planning Application for 2 or more dwellings on a lot"

and 2) "Planning Application for Subdivision Prior Development Permit"



The former requires a report of "Neighborhood and Site Description (Clause 55.01-1)" while the later requires to submit "Site and context description and a design response to clause 56.01"

I interpret "Planning Application for 2 or more dwellings on a lot" as a checklist for planning permit for building 2 or more dwellings on a lot of land (just 1 title). This is not a subdivision. And the "Planning Application for Subdivision Prior Development Permit" is for subdivision. Therefore, in my case, I should apply the "Planning Application for Subdivision Prior Development Permit". Is that correct? Can someone correct me?

Thanks a lot.