Depends whether you consider the glass half full or half empty I guess.
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
Taking action against unethical Agents
- Thread starter Aceyducey
- Start date
Apparently the statistics are 20% absolutely honest ethical agents in the RE industry and 80% unethical or dishonest. That was related to me a few years ago by a friend who was/is an agent principal and who had been in the industry for decades.
The REIs and most agents always say the opposite is true.
As i have said previously an unethical agent is only considered that when hes been busted being unethical and that doesnt happen very often.
Most vendors wouldnt have a clue they have signed a sales contract after the agent has bought the lsiting, or they are being conditioned, that theyve bought a house at an auction after dummy bidding has pushed the price up.....etc...and the same applies to buyers. Most buyers dont realise how internal workings in a RE office can affect their offer on a property.....theres plenty of others.
So i see the poll as having limited value and David, agents sloppy paperwork is the least of the industries worries.
The REIs and most agents always say the opposite is true.
As i have said previously an unethical agent is only considered that when hes been busted being unethical and that doesnt happen very often.
Most vendors wouldnt have a clue they have signed a sales contract after the agent has bought the lsiting, or they are being conditioned, that theyve bought a house at an auction after dummy bidding has pushed the price up.....etc...and the same applies to buyers. Most buyers dont realise how internal workings in a RE office can affect their offer on a property.....theres plenty of others.
So i see the poll as having limited value and David, agents sloppy paperwork is the least of the industries worries.
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I am enriched and enlightened by your unique point of view, thank you.
Might I say that this is really an interesting way to establish a right and wrong, I am sure most members here are fine upstanding individuals but the fact remains the members here are in the majority totally anonymous. So we agree on this point "So i see the poll as having limited value" Just an observation.
Might I say that this is really an interesting way to establish a right and wrong, I am sure most members here are fine upstanding individuals but the fact remains the members here are in the majority totally anonymous. So we agree on this point "So i see the poll as having limited value" Just an observation.
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geoffw said:
Geoff, im a pretty open minded guy. Enough to not have preconceptions about things but the poll only applies to agents that have been busted being unethical and thats a minority of them. And that, mate is reality.
edit: Or let me put it another way. The examples i gave in my previous post are fairly common in the RE industry, i think we can agree on that. Now, are they not examples of RE agents acting unethically and not being found to be unethical by unsuspecting vendor/buyers? Maybe we are looking at this from differing viewpoints but i dont know how most people can disagree with that fact.
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Apologies, I edited and added we agree on the "So i see the poll as having limited value"
I think people are looking at this poll in different ways. Some posts seem to be saying that the poll implies that all agents are unethical or that the poll is not effective in establishing whether or not agents are unethical. The way I interpreted the poll was that it was simply asking about people's reactions when they did encounter an unethical agent (regardless of whether those agents represent 80% or 0.08% of the industry). I thought it was very simple; the ensuing discussion has surprised me.
Amarantha said:
I agree. The poll asked whether people had taken action against an unethical agent - it didnt ask what proportion of agents were unethical. Hence statements like
superted said:
are irrelevant and misleading. 43% of people had never dealt with an unethical agent. 57% of people had- whether 1 in 10 or 9 in 10 agents these people deal with were unethical is outside the scope of this poll.
Hardly surprising - 4 out of every 3 people have trouble with statistics
Jamie.
Kevin Hockey said:Funny thing is while consumers seem to believe the REI's are not doing anything valuable for them REA's believe they are toothless tigers also. They simply have no authority, and thats the problem. They just mediate and collect stats, assist governments in legislation etc but if you want action you must go to the Office of Fair Trading in your state. They control the licences required to operate and have the authority and means to do something about it. Doesn't mean you wil get the result you want though
I am very pleased to see the result from this but would still like to see the number of happy clients around 80%. Still, far better than some would have you believe.
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
Kev
Thank you for your frank and accurate assessment.
In all walks of life the legitimate traders need enlightened support and monitoring by the regulators. That way, the legitimate businesspeople - and there are many - can charge fair prices and make a good living. This means they are there to provide ongoing advice and warranty, where applicable and everybody wins.
Unfortunately the Office of Fair Trading and other govt bodies are rarely proactive even where they have the power. They invariably want peole to complete complaints to get the stats up, however nothing ensues. So the ethical business people and consumer alike suffer at the hands of the shonks.
For example, if there was the political will to encourage the Building Authority to be more proactive, good builders would not be competing with so many cowboys.
my 2c worth.
Lplate
I'd say these were opinions, not statslikewow said:
Anyone got stats for how many people in other professions are ABSOLUTELY honest & ethical?
Anyone out there absolutely honest & ethical at all times in their profession?
(and don't tell me that you're completely honest - but very diplomatic....)
I reckon if it's 20% of Real Estate agents as opined, that's a VERY high percentage of absolutely honest & ethical people compared to other professions.
And you can trust me - I'm absolutely honest and ethical all the time!
Cheers,
Aceyducey
Another problem I believe is the OFT is only interested in the consumer, not in regulating or controlling the agents from each other. Someone needs to be controlling us, ie sign jumping and many other various bad habits agents get up to, which creates a culture of deceit within the industry.
As for this continual one way criticism of agents as the only ones behaving badly, frankly I'm so sick of hearing it. As I said before, most owners bring it on themselves. They are too bothered about signing with an agent who says they will get the price the owner wants instead of service, marketing skills, communication skills and negotiating skills. Who gives a toss what price an agent thinks the house is worth, they aren't buying it, buyers determine the price.
Yesterday and today I have been battling with an owner about my commission. Now that I have provided him an offer suddenly he wants me to drop my comm to get it together. Frankly I'm insulted and I believe it is rude to have wanted to negotiate now when he had the opportunity when he agreed to it at listing the property. I don't mind so much him asking but when he continued by threatening if I don't I would miss out on the sale, they will list with someone else and I'd get nothing. I said I'd rather have nothing than to reduce my value. He would reduce to $270k if I took 2 grand off my comm. I explained I wasn't finished with the buyer yet and our conversation was irrelevant if the buyer would pay the price they were happy with. When today came and the buyer went to $272k (and I knew I could still get more) he still wanted me to reduce my comm, go figure. Eventually it was all agreed at $273k and I didn't reduce my comm. The day I do that I become just another real estate agent and that is something I am not. For mine, his actions are as unethical as many things agents do!!
As a kid my Mum would say "There's 2 sides to every story" (as well as "don't bite your finger nails and watch out for the quiet ones") . My experience is when an owner is complaining bitterly about an agent only about half of what is said is fact and only about half the time is the problem really the agent. There's only one reason a house doesn't sell. The best house in the world won't sell if it is overpriced and the worse house will if it represents value.
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
As for this continual one way criticism of agents as the only ones behaving badly, frankly I'm so sick of hearing it. As I said before, most owners bring it on themselves. They are too bothered about signing with an agent who says they will get the price the owner wants instead of service, marketing skills, communication skills and negotiating skills. Who gives a toss what price an agent thinks the house is worth, they aren't buying it, buyers determine the price.
Yesterday and today I have been battling with an owner about my commission. Now that I have provided him an offer suddenly he wants me to drop my comm to get it together. Frankly I'm insulted and I believe it is rude to have wanted to negotiate now when he had the opportunity when he agreed to it at listing the property. I don't mind so much him asking but when he continued by threatening if I don't I would miss out on the sale, they will list with someone else and I'd get nothing. I said I'd rather have nothing than to reduce my value. He would reduce to $270k if I took 2 grand off my comm. I explained I wasn't finished with the buyer yet and our conversation was irrelevant if the buyer would pay the price they were happy with. When today came and the buyer went to $272k (and I knew I could still get more) he still wanted me to reduce my comm, go figure. Eventually it was all agreed at $273k and I didn't reduce my comm. The day I do that I become just another real estate agent and that is something I am not. For mine, his actions are as unethical as many things agents do!!
As a kid my Mum would say "There's 2 sides to every story" (as well as "don't bite your finger nails and watch out for the quiet ones")
. My experience is when an owner is complaining bitterly about an agent only about half of what is said is fact and only about half the time is the problem really the agent. There's only one reason a house doesn't sell. The best house in the world won't sell if it is overpriced and the worse house will if it represents value. Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
I don't want this to appear a fellow agent patting the back of another agent but quite frankly Kevin that post deserves a vote. I recently posted a parting post from this board but almost right away received emails to hang in and ignore the few that have a fixation on agents and their failings either real or perceived. (yesterday I happened to read a very old topic you had going about a waterfront property for sale that you shared with the forum only to have this happen also) Balance is the word and I enjoyed your replies.
I will share a story.
Seller appoints an agent as their exclusive agent, I know this agent and he is one I respect for doing his job well. With no sale but offers in the 60 days seller listed it with myself and another agent as an open listing. The other two of us get busy and start marketing the property. Two weeks into the open listing the first agent gets an offer which is agreed upon. So the initial agent who has managed to get the property on the market originally and at a realistic price gets the sale, well done even if its not me. He has kept on trying and succeeded.
Word has come to me that this owner is doing the study to enter real estate and has taken the listing paperwork for all three agents to the class for them to dissect. Seller believes (I have looked at and can see no such error) that this agents paperwork has an error on it and the seller is seriously considering not paying the commission but has not informed the agent yet as they are leaving it until closer to settlement. The agent did the job, carried on even after the exclusive had turned to open listing and achieved a good price for the property and now after being happy with the result the seller is trying to get out of paying for the service (which I believe will fail)
Interesting ...
Typo edited.
I will share a story.
Seller appoints an agent as their exclusive agent, I know this agent and he is one I respect for doing his job well. With no sale but offers in the 60 days seller listed it with myself and another agent as an open listing. The other two of us get busy and start marketing the property. Two weeks into the open listing the first agent gets an offer which is agreed upon. So the initial agent who has managed to get the property on the market originally and at a realistic price gets the sale, well done even if its not me. He has kept on trying and succeeded.
Word has come to me that this owner is doing the study to enter real estate and has taken the listing paperwork for all three agents to the class for them to dissect. Seller believes (I have looked at and can see no such error) that this agents paperwork has an error on it and the seller is seriously considering not paying the commission but has not informed the agent yet as they are leaving it until closer to settlement. The agent did the job, carried on even after the exclusive had turned to open listing and achieved a good price for the property and now after being happy with the result the seller is trying to get out of paying for the service (which I believe will fail)
Interesting ...
Typo edited.
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We've all heard the line RE agents use 'buyers are liars' and yes it can go both ways, but i think that might be caused by the publics already held view of the RE industry. I dont want this thread to turn into an endless RE agents debate and i can understnd why honest agnets (you guys) get defensive about the reputation the RE industry as a whole receives.
But can i ask 2 questions of you guys:
1.. Do you consider my couple of examples above false and untrue or are common occurences in the RE industry?
2.. If the RE industry &/or the REIs considers the criticism they receive as undeserved and untrue - especially by the likes of Jenman, Ryder and Morrell - then why havnt they successfully sued these guys for defamation/slander or mounted any successful legal challenge?
Its a question thats been on my mind for a while, possibly you guys being in the industry can answer it.
But can i ask 2 questions of you guys:
1.. Do you consider my couple of examples above false and untrue or are common occurences in the RE industry?
2.. If the RE industry &/or the REIs considers the criticism they receive as undeserved and untrue - especially by the likes of Jenman, Ryder and Morrell - then why havnt they successfully sued these guys for defamation/slander or mounted any successful legal challenge?
Its a question thats been on my mind for a while, possibly you guys being in the industry can answer it.
Hi Likewow,
None of my replies have been meant to be directed at any person and certainly not at yourself, I love nothing better than good debate and one thing I believe is very Australian is being able to accept we all can have an opinion and we have the right to voice it.
To answer your valid points - Whilst consumers call agents unethical I call them untrained. Most (I suggest 90%) don't go into this industry with a plan to lie, cheat and steal, they learn it from unsavoury colleagues. Again I will state, the problem lays directly at the feet of Principals and their inept ability at handling staff, creating positive cultures and recruiting the right people for the industry. Not everyone who thinks they can sell real estate is necessarily suited to dealing with people. Only a minority I believe purposely act in an poor manner, they usually just don't know any better.
As for the second part of the question, this forum is monitored by the people (or at least one of them) you requested me to make comment on. Freedom of speech is not as free as everyone may believe. I know why my group hasn't done anything but I think most people believe in the Democratic system of people being able to make their own decision of what is crap and what is fact and real. I think the industry felt people would just die on their sword but it didn't happen. As for the Jenman system, I do believe their is a lot of good in it and it has been good in many ways for the industry. It has certainly brought ethics to the top of many people's agenda.
At the end of the day you would need to ask those people why they haven't taken any action if they felt it necessary to do so. Without knowing the facts any comments I may make would leave me as open as a strippers blouse as Indy.
I can say that a local office, very dedicated to the Jenman system for many years, is no longer with the system and now promotes open houses after years of telling those same owners they would be robbed if they did. I would also suggest talking to Lee Woodward of Prime Training about his verdict on the matter. He's been a former No1 Jenman salesperson but now owns an office outside that system. At least he has been in both places and can give a balanced perspective.
Keep with debating issues, we all learn from it. Glad you hung in Dave. Personally, my company is growing so fast I just can't commit the time to the forum as I did in the past but I love it and many of the people within it.
All power to freedom of speech I say
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
None of my replies have been meant to be directed at any person and certainly not at yourself, I love nothing better than good debate and one thing I believe is very Australian is being able to accept we all can have an opinion and we have the right to voice it.
To answer your valid points - Whilst consumers call agents unethical I call them untrained. Most (I suggest 90%) don't go into this industry with a plan to lie, cheat and steal, they learn it from unsavoury colleagues. Again I will state, the problem lays directly at the feet of Principals and their inept ability at handling staff, creating positive cultures and recruiting the right people for the industry. Not everyone who thinks they can sell real estate is necessarily suited to dealing with people. Only a minority I believe purposely act in an poor manner, they usually just don't know any better.
As for the second part of the question, this forum is monitored by the people (or at least one of them) you requested me to make comment on. Freedom of speech is not as free as everyone may believe. I know why my group hasn't done anything but I think most people believe in the Democratic system of people being able to make their own decision of what is crap and what is fact and real. I think the industry felt people would just die on their sword but it didn't happen. As for the Jenman system, I do believe their is a lot of good in it and it has been good in many ways for the industry. It has certainly brought ethics to the top of many people's agenda.
At the end of the day you would need to ask those people why they haven't taken any action if they felt it necessary to do so. Without knowing the facts any comments I may make would leave me as open as a strippers blouse as Indy.
I can say that a local office, very dedicated to the Jenman system for many years, is no longer with the system and now promotes open houses after years of telling those same owners they would be robbed if they did. I would also suggest talking to Lee Woodward of Prime Training about his verdict on the matter. He's been a former No1 Jenman salesperson but now owns an office outside that system. At least he has been in both places and can give a balanced perspective.
Keep with debating issues, we all learn from it. Glad you hung in Dave. Personally, my company is growing so fast I just can't commit the time to the forum as I did in the past but I love it and many of the people within it.
All power to freedom of speech I say
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
Thanks Kevin,
Im not sure you answered my questions tho. I think it would be ok to answer in a general sense as far as the legailties of that would entail. Im not in the RE industry (but ive bought & sold a lot of properties) so i guess im still left wondering to the answer to the second question.
Im not sure you answered my questions tho. I think it would be ok to answer in a general sense as far as the legailties of that would entail. Im not in the RE industry (but ive bought & sold a lot of properties) so i guess im still left wondering to the answer to the second question.
Like a good politician I know how to dodge a bullet when I see one
You are right, I didn't answer it because I can't. I could give my opinion but the Administrators would remove it or I'd leave myself out to hang.
As I said, if you want the answer you need to ask those who have made the decision not to take action.
I hope this answers your question lol
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
You are right, I didn't answer it because I can't. I could give my opinion but the Administrators would remove it or I'd leave myself out to hang.
As I said, if you want the answer you need to ask those who have made the decision not to take action.
I hope this answers your question lol
Kev
www.nundahrealestate.com.au
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