Haven't been watching anymore. How was it botched, landlubber?
Terrorist attack
- Thread starter Brian84
- Start date
To say that sort of crap at this stage is just uninformed BS. Shots were heard inside before they stormed in , so how can you say it was botched .
Are you a world expert in how to handle this sort of situation ? Maybe it was botched , but the reality is at this stage we don't know.
Personally I was impressed with how the authorities and the media handled it . They obviously had things ready to roll out and moved quickly and efficiently
The Australian Media , by not reporting on details as the events were unfolding started the perpetrator of the one thing he wanted . Publicity .
I was annoyed by a US media commentator who was criticizing the australian media response . They have no right to tell us how we should have reported . We didn't need sensationalist over the top speculation as events unfolded ( which is how america reacts ) . America is a different place to Oz and we responded in our way .
Personally I was impressed with how Sydney , individually and as a City handled the events .
Cliff
I was impressed with how relaxed the people were who were told to leave their buildings and headed a few blocks south to the pub across the road from my office. Very Aussie, I thought.
Hmmm ..where do we start?
It is VERY, VERY clear that early yesterday the people in charge knew this guy was a nutter, an Islamic supporter and had a rep as long as your arm. Suspected involvement in ex-wife murder etc ... Out on bail etc. Goodness, there is HEAPS of video file footage with the MSM even !!
Then we have MANY clear views (all on TV) of the perp standing in clear view, stationary, alone. One shot would do it. No danger to hostages.
Still we take no action. Lives are at risk. A possible bomb threat. Hundreds of police etc. And we do nothing.
We actually have a sniper in position (somewhere at Chan 7 the TV said) with a clear view of the perp.
We still do nothing.
The sniper clearly has a good view as he sees the first hostage killed. ONLY when the sniper actually sees the perp kill the first hostage do we consider acting.
Does the sniper take him out. No. To be fair, perhaps by then it was not possible for the sniper to do so.
But we send in the team.
By then two Aussies are dead. Game over.
Too little, too late. Botched.
Try and catch the interview of Prof Joe Siracusa RMIT with the ABC... he tells the same story.
Pontificate all you like see change ... but two innocent people are dead. LL
Easy to argue that a single bullet could have ended everything quickly. No doubt there were multiple opportunities and there were snipers in position (probably military, unlikely police).
But what about a bomb with a dead mans switch, it's not hard to assemble? In that case you'd have a dead criminal and a bunch of dead hostages.
Could a sniper have made a clear shot at that critical moment?
What if they had managed to capture him alive? This is a highly desirable outcome as it would have been an opportunity to put him on trial, denounce his supposed cause. Show the world there are no terrorists, they're just common criminals. Give them the media coverage they deserve for their crime, not what the criminals want.
Whilst they're not executing hostages there's a chance it can be resolved without loss of life.
It's easy to sit in front of a computer or in a TV studio and criticize the law enforcement, the media, the political leaders. It's much harder to make the decisions on the ground, in the middle and at the top knowing that you're not 100% in control and everything you do will be analyzed with the clarity of hindsight.
Lessons will be learned from yesterday, but it's a sad day when as a society we feel that a sniper bullet is going to be the best response for every hostage situation.
But what about a bomb with a dead mans switch, it's not hard to assemble? In that case you'd have a dead criminal and a bunch of dead hostages.
Could a sniper have made a clear shot at that critical moment?
What if they had managed to capture him alive? This is a highly desirable outcome as it would have been an opportunity to put him on trial, denounce his supposed cause. Show the world there are no terrorists, they're just common criminals. Give them the media coverage they deserve for their crime, not what the criminals want.
Whilst they're not executing hostages there's a chance it can be resolved without loss of life.
It's easy to sit in front of a computer or in a TV studio and criticize the law enforcement, the media, the political leaders. It's much harder to make the decisions on the ground, in the middle and at the top knowing that you're not 100% in control and everything you do will be analyzed with the clarity of hindsight.
Lessons will be learned from yesterday, but it's a sad day when as a society we feel that a sniper bullet is going to be the best response for every hostage situation.
That's my point ( and also Prof Siracusa) ...this is hardly the first hostage crisis for goodness sake ! Many before. Lots of 'lessons' to learn from !! We know the probabilities. The overwhelming 'lesson' that we failed to heed yesterday was prompt, decisive action is best. Proven once again. Which is your choice ? A sniper bullet ? ..or innocent people, mothers, fathers killed? For me, no choice. You sound like you'd like to think about it for a while ... LL
Personally no issue with a snipers bullet.
But was it known for certain that he did not have a bomb with a dead man's switch?
I don't know what the answer it, but I'm not going to tell the guys on the ground how to actually deal with it, given they're the ones who have to implement the solution. Their job yesterday was hard and it's probably no easier today. I'll let them do it as best they can.
I don't have a problem with a bullet either, and you're right that on balance of probabilities decisive action is usually the best, but it's not my call.
For absolute certain ? I can't say. The MSM didn't mention. But we do know there was a sniper who would have had a telescopic sight for a REAL close-up view. The MSM TV showed the perp in clear torso view for prolonged periods of time. We had LOTS of info on this guy. We had hostages who we could have possibly contacted by text maybe. And hell, we have untold police and anti-terrorist 'departments'. If he WAS putting a bomb together, which I would have to think is not easy in Oz...and we DIDN'T know .... more fool us. LL
Indeed. Perhaps if they did fewer people would lose their lives. Mental illness is responsible for an awful lot of violence in our suburbs and it may have played a factor here - I don't know.
For some of us, this is a very personal issue and will always be very emotional.
Our lack of diagnosis, care and treatment for the mentally ill is causing a lot of damage to our society and the people in it. Appropriate early intervention and treatment could have saved lives in this case - and while of course it may have also made no difference, that still makes it worth a try.
Jesus H Christ the keyboard warriors are out already! Too many movies and no idea. Did you see how quickly the EOD was in the building afterwards.......that will give you an idea of the nature of the perceived threat.
I have stayed away from the news because of this siege and not wanting to see too much suffering, although I know a little from the twitter feed. #Illridewithyou was something positive to come out of this.
I think the prime objective of the police was to get all hostages out unharmed, in which case I think Landlubber is right--it wasn't a successful operation. I still don't understand why they couldn't have got a sniper; they had a clear target.
My heart goes out to the two victims. The others will be left with trauma.
I think the prime objective of the police was to get all hostages out unharmed, in which case I think Landlubber is right--it wasn't a successful operation. I still don't understand why they couldn't have got a sniper; they had a clear target.
My heart goes out to the two victims. The others will be left with trauma.
Can you explain?
I didnt know you were tactical operations expert
let me just leave this picture up,
Do you want to explain why the police should have risked the lives of ALL of the hostages by taking a shot from a sniper, only to potentially trigger a time delay/deadman switch on a bomb.
LL is jumping in as a self professed expert , sitting behind the safety of anominity and his key board . His words show he has no real understanding of the situation.
The reality is that these guys train constantly for situations that in all probability never happen .
They have to make decisions in a matter of seconds / minutes that affect people's lives . There is no correct decision , just options and noone knows what is the correct option . They have to use their best judgement and then live with the decision
They don't have the luxury of being able to sit down at their keyboard in a position of safety choosing their words and talking about what could have / should have happened.
But they have to sit back at cop it while every self professed expert with a key board jumps into criticise them.
I can't profess to have been though like anything what will happen in the aftermath , but as a medico I have first hand involvement in incidents where people have died and then seen what has happened as every decision that had to be taken in a matter of seconds is overanalysed by experts who take weeks and months and years to work out what should have happened . It is not a nice experience .
Pontificating ... Not me . Again at this stage no one knows the reality of the situation . Maybe we're lucky that only two innocents are dead
Cliff
The reality is that these guys train constantly for situations that in all probability never happen .
They have to make decisions in a matter of seconds / minutes that affect people's lives . There is no correct decision , just options and noone knows what is the correct option . They have to use their best judgement and then live with the decision
They don't have the luxury of being able to sit down at their keyboard in a position of safety choosing their words and talking about what could have / should have happened.
But they have to sit back at cop it while every self professed expert with a key board jumps into criticise them.
I can't profess to have been though like anything what will happen in the aftermath , but as a medico I have first hand involvement in incidents where people have died and then seen what has happened as every decision that had to be taken in a matter of seconds is overanalysed by experts who take weeks and months and years to work out what should have happened . It is not a nice experience .
Pontificating ... Not me . Again at this stage no one knows the reality of the situation . Maybe we're lucky that only two innocents are dead
Cliff
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2873855/Gunman-takes-hostages-cafe-Sydney.html
Lot's of contact. People deliverying food. Clear photo's of the guy. Hands visible so no dead-man's switch obvious. Any dead-man's switch had to be in his hand right ?? If we can't handle this one .....let's hope we don't get a serious terrorist.
We don't have 'sleeping gas' that would just put 'em all to sleep ? Feed it through the aircon ?? Just an idea. LL
Lot's of contact. People deliverying food. Clear photo's of the guy. Hands visible so no dead-man's switch obvious. Any dead-man's switch had to be in his hand right ?? If we can't handle this one .....let's hope we don't get a serious terrorist.
We don't have 'sleeping gas' that would just put 'em all to sleep ? Feed it through the aircon ?? Just an idea. LL
