And maybe not. Is it that hard to wait to actually find out what happened before commenting on something? I fail to see how any of this speculation helps anything... or anyone.
Terrorist attack
- Thread starter Brian84
- Start date
And maybe not. Is it that hard to wait to actually find out what happened before commenting on something? I fail to see how any of this speculation helps anything... or anyone.
Yes, maybe he should have gathered all the hostages and discuss alternative scenarios (i.e. your suggested alternative viewpoints), do a risk assessment, maybe an action consequence benefit analysis. Should involve the primary stakeholder, namely the hostage taker, in the discussion as well. Get the police in and go through with them the steps, provide some refreshments as well while he is at it.
Political correctness aside, all I know and read is that he was courageous. That make him a hero in my eyes even though the final outcome may be unfortunate. He may have left it to the "experts", but if anything would have happened due to his inaction he may regret that for the whole of his life.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
Please understand the difference between a good man and a keyboard warrior.
Good point. I imagine the professionals were hoping a hostage would take matters into their own hands to save them wondering what to do.....
Life isn't a movie folks.
Hahaaa ha ...you're double dippin' that kool-aid again! You will only find out what the 'authorities' want you to find out. As the saying goes "You had to be there". LL
Maybe I didn't express myself well. Or maybe you read facebook and decided you know what happened so didn't need to read what I wrote.
I'm saying we don't know what happened.
Maybe the situation was escalating and he saved most of the people at the cost of his own life.
Maybe he cost lives because he panicked and decided he knew best.
I bet the other victim's family are wishing things were done different.
We don't know. I don't know.
I have read your post. You are the one suggesting alternative viewpoints, maybe this maybe that.
All I am saying is regardless of what had happened, we know without a doubt that he was courageous and was a good man. We do not need the full details to come to that conclusion.
And you weren't there, so why are you commenting at all?
BTW conspiracy theories don't help anything, or anyone, either...
What exactly do you think you're achieving here with your pis s poor attitude?
New NSW Police Tactical chief here, sign him up! just bring the manual.
And you were ??? .......
I have more faith in getting an acurate report from the Australian authorities in this situation , than from the usual conspiracy theorist who you seem to be aligning with
Cliff
It doesn't matter whether they get medals, to me they are heroes--the female for defending her pregnant friend, and the manager for taking on the gunman.
Mr scipione said it best:
No speculation, no what ifs, no perceived better methods or solutions.
Let's not let unintended consequence or possible better outcomes diminish the fact that we have lost two good Australians in this. They will be heroes in my eyes for who they are.
They had him on at the beginning of the siege. Urging that the police should go in straight away and not make the mistake of holding back. I got the impression that it was his view that the police should always charge in at the first opportunity in these situations.
However the hostage taker had been clever and created the impression that he had explosives with him so one would have thought it would be prudent to hang back and wait it out.
Some info about the hostage taking coward copied from the ABC archive.
Rachael Kohn - opinion
19 Nov 2009
Sheik Haron is a controversial figure amongst Australia's religious communities. ABC's Religion broadcaster, Rachael Kohn, questions how Sheik Haron has been allowed to proliferate his own brand of extremism for so long.
Almost two years ago, Richard Kerbaj [The Australian, Jan 28 2008] reported that the Melbourne based Shia Muslim leader, Kamal Mousselmani, urged the Australian Federal Police to investigate Sheik Haron, whom Mousselmani claimed was not a genuine religious leader.
Some Sydneysiders would remember Haron as the Iranian refugee Manteghi Boroujerdi, who chained himself to the front fence of the New South Wales Parliament in January 2001, insisting that the Federal Government bring his wife and children to Australia.
Then, as now, he is given to extreme attention seeking behaviour. The difference is that then he claimed to be a liberal and convinced Stephen Crittenden to describe him as such on ABC Radio National's The Religion Report [January 31, 2001]. Now Sheik Haron is busy converting a property in Campsie, New South Wales, to a prayer hall and a book shop in a bid to teach his extremist form of Islam.
He has recently been charged by the AFP for unlawfully using the postal service to "menace, harass or cause offence" to the families of deceased Australian soldiers. If he's convicted, we may be temporarily spared an outlet for views that many Muslims have been keen to disassociate from, especially since 9/11.
Islam, they say, is not about the violent jihad which terrorists espouse, it is about peace. Yet in Australia, the Muslim community missed an opportunity to expose, denounce and shut down the antics of a religious extremist, who for at least the past two years has been using the internet, CDs and other means justifying violent jihad.
The trouble is that Sheik Haron, as he calls himself, can seem a bit too loony to take seriously, but this is a mistake. The self-styled mufti is no shrinking violet when it comes to promoting hatred of the West and justifying violence in the name of Allah. Nor is he lacking funds to produce his elaborate propaganda.
I have been one of his targets, along with other public figures, including the Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and the Melbourne magistrate, Judge Peter Reardon, who presided over the case of five men charged with planning a terrorist attack against the Holsworthy Army base [The Australian, Aug 26 2009].
I have read the sheik's faxes, letters on custom letterhead, and CDs in which he openly promoted the glorious calling of jihad against the West and celebrated the deaths of Australians in war and in the Victorian bushfires.
According to him, the deaths of both soldiers and civilians were the work of Allah, who metes out punishment to those who offend or harm Muslims.
In a fax he sent to Prime Minister Kevin Rudd with a copy to me, he asserted that the deaths of people in the bushfires was Allah's revenge on Australians, because the government did not oppose the death penalty for the Bali bombers. It's clear where his sympathies lie.
During a week when everyone in the media pointed the finger at the Christian group, Catch the Fire Ministries, which interpreted the Victorian bushfires as God's revenge on the Victorian government that had recently passed legislation legalising abortion, I announced in my February 15 edition of The Spirit of Things on ABC Radio National that the 'renegade Sheik Haron' had propagated an equally extreme view.
This promptly elicited a letter from his lawyer to the ABC, alleging defamation because I used the word "renegade", which he believed impugned his religious credentials. My intention was more prosaic, to distinguish Haron from most Australian Muslims, who, I assumed, would not agree with his take on the 171 deaths in the Victorian bushfires as an act of Allah's retribution.
Not that I had any reassurances from Muslims about it - I didn't. Instead, I remained on Sheik Haron's website under the title, You Will Pay a Price!, in which he writes, en passant, that the Australian Federal Police is corrupt and connected to the Jewish mafia.
In the many media conferences and interfaith meetings I've attended, Muslims have regularly complained that the media cast them in a poor light.
However valid that complaint may be, it loses all credibility when they don't go after the radicals in their community.
If they don't, the media will do it for them.
And in the case of Sheik Haron, he was really very hard to miss.
But one issue remains outstanding: just who is a genuine religious leader in the Muslim community and who is monitoring their output to young Australians?
Last year, the president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Ikbal Patel, was reported as not knowing anything about Haron.
Yet it would seem that with the rapid growth of storefront prayer halls, it is time to ensure that all the independent sheiks who garner a following be known and when necessary reined-in by a body that represents the interests of Australian Muslims.
Rachael Kohn is the producer-presenter of Radio National's The Spirit of Things.
Read my posts kool-aid kid... I'm only commenting on what was totally,utterly, bleedin' obvious from watching the dumb ol' everyday media and listening to the talking heads on (... of all places) the ABC. No conspiracy theories here! Just observations and free speech. Mixed with a lot of sadness for 3 Aussie kids somewhere with no mum anymore. That's kinda permanent. LL
I totally agree about the sadness. I totally disagree about:
- The ad hominem attacks ("Kool Aid Kid")
- The idea that our police didn't know what they were doing
- The idea that the ideal police response was completely obvious to anyone at all
- The idea that our police didn't have the best interests of the hostages at heart or weren't doing everything possible to get them out safely.
You have been attacking a group of highly trained professionals who put themselves in the firing line and who know a lot more than you about how to go about counter terrorism and resolving hostage taking situations, on the basis of what? What you see on the box from the POV of your armchair?
Give me a break... Or more to the point, give them a break. You're not helping. Walk a mile in their shoes before claiming how much better you would be at their job.
Agree .
I think people are only raising issues in response to LL's continued opinionated an ill informed comments .
Cliff
Unbelievable...uninformed comments?
It's LL's opinion on what should have been done.
You sticking up for the majority in this issue but minorities on other issues makes you just as bad as you make LL out to be.
Sheeple.
Improvements come from differing opinions put forward, not shut down by hypocrites.
It's LL's opinion on what should have been done.
You sticking up for the majority in this issue but minorities on other issues makes you just as bad as you make LL out to be.
Sheeple.
Improvements come from differing opinions put forward, not shut down by hypocrites.
Not even on any terrorist watch list !
Abbot has just confirmed that despite all the gunman's form, his internet presence etc plus he was well known to ASIO ....he wasn't even on any terrorist watch list. The incompetence is even worse than I thought. Unbelievable. LL
Abbot has just confirmed that despite all the gunman's form, his internet presence etc plus he was well known to ASIO ....he wasn't even on any terrorist watch list. The incompetence is even worse than I thought. Unbelievable. LL
terribly sad and waste of life. wonder how many others like him are amongst us? authorities knew his history and behaviour, yet he had a gun and was free to do as he wished. our taxes no doubt funded him and his legal aid.
no wonder people are angry, its justified. lessons will be learnt sounds hollow.
no wonder people are angry, its justified. lessons will be learnt sounds hollow.
..and how did he ever get a firearm ?
Not a minor question .... Given ALL the form this guy had , how did he ever get possession of a firearm ? ...... Clearly more incompetence ! LL
Not a minor question .... Given ALL the form this guy had , how did he ever get possession of a firearm ? ...... Clearly more incompetence ! LL
