The benefits of eating out!

[Dazz]

They are so lazy now, I would hate to see what they would be like eating out most nights. Right little snots, I reckon.

This is one of he few threads that Mrs Dazzling has been interested in and we've actually had a discussion on it, and what Wyile has written was basically our conclusion.

We compared it to when we lived as an ex-pat overseas and had a full time maid. Just about every aspect of the kid's development as useful productive members of society went backwards when they were waited on hand and foot.

Getting rid of the maid and paddling our own canoe has seen a remarkable turn around in their development.

Any parent that churns out a child without being able to perform the basics in life needs a reality check such that they are able to ;

1. Load of washing on - without having your whites turn pink.
2. Hang up clothes efficiently on a clothesline - not shoving them into a dryer.
3. Cook something nourishing - not reach for the mobile and dial up pizza
4. Change a tyre - not reach for the mobile and call the NRMA
5. Change the oil on a vehicle - not book the vehicle in for a 99 point inspection
6. Clean a toilet - not have the maid do it
7. Mow your own lawn - not pay $ 40 per fortnight to watch someone else do it whilst you sit there drinking coffee


All of these (and hundreds of other normal everyday things) are being lost, much to the detriment of our modern society, because it's more economically efficient to sit on your bum and trade shares or work in a three piece suit in some high rise tower, or eat out every night, or pay to have a servant.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

The eat in/out comparison needs to be elaborated to more than $ for $ for a feed.

Better to consider (Calories*$)/Nutrients. If either of the numerators go up, relative to the denominator, the quality of the deal drops.

Further, I would hazard a guess that a well balanced eat out experience would cost at least $15 per adult and $8 per child. For a family of 4, that's $48 per dinner and around $70 pre tax. For 6 meals a week, that's $420 pw or $21k pa.

Food (not all groceries) for eating in might cost around $160pw for a family of 4. ($230 pre tax)

That's around a $200 pw difference. or $33 per meal.

However, considering a after several years of repetition, most households would have a sensible routine, 2 of 6 meals might be leftovers or frozen, and thereby cut prep time by 2/3s for those meals.

Therefore time to cook in could be
1 hour per meal cooked from start
20 mins for frozens.
Total for 6 meals = 4hrs and 40 mins pw.

At $200/4.66 = $43 per hour.

Now sure, that doesn't include savings on
- time spent at supermarket.
- electricity or gas .. though I think that is miniscule.
The one thing I would be quick to outsource would be grocery getting....



As for dazzling's list, I'd add things kids at 12 should be able to do:
build a fire
shine shoes
iron a shirt and pants
sew a button
tie a tie
fold clothes and put them away

chop soft vege without cutting themselves. (after 7years)
cook an egg. make an omelette.
microwave vege. fry meat.
clean up after

keep a cash book of income and expenditure (like the old savings account bank books)
tie shoe laces
make a bed
change the sheets
maintain a bicycle
use a lawn mower. lube a mower.
handle a screw driver, hammer, pliers, wrenches.
tie a few basic knots
wrap presents properly
read a bus or train timetable
be able to swim

for emergencies
how to turn the mains water and electricity off
basic first aid skills. be able to talk intelligently to a 000 operator.

probably a good book in this somewhere.
"100 Skills Every Kid Needs"

 

[Peter Parker]

I had always heard about the serving sizes in the US and from our experience have to agree. They are way tooo large. And interestingly even the expensive restaurants had much larger servings than our expensive restaurants. So it was not just limited to "middle America" restaurants.

This might highlight several US-vs-Australia differences.

One of my pet theories is a relationship between a suburb's distance from the CBD, its serving size and the price.

Inner suburbs = small portions, high prices (and to add insult, plates are massive!)
Outer suburbs = large portions, low prices

I don't know if this is an inner-city thing, or whether it's more related to a suburb's socio-economic profile which is not unrelated to inner-vs-outer (most of our posh suburbs are inner).

To do that you'd need to compare serving sizes between inner-poor (eg Braybrook), middle-rich (Doncaster) and outer-rich (Sorrento/Portsea?) to see whether geography or income is the bigger decider.

Again there is some difference with the US - (inner suburbs = poor in the US, inner suburbs = rich in Australia).

The type of eating establishments also varies - outer areas are mostly KFC/Maccas/Red Rooster/Subway (sorry Geoffw) all in a strip or near a major intersection, whereas inner suburbs have main street restaurants with nary a chicken/burger joint to be seen (although Subways are fairly common).

Middle suburbs have all of the above plus roadside restaurants that are a step above cardboard-packaged fast food, but what must be massive US-style servings (I'm thinking Lazy Moe's Oakleigh).

Peter

 

[geoffw]

I don't know if this is an inner-city thing, or whether it's more related to a suburb's socio-economic profile which is not unrelated to inner-vs-outer (most of our posh suburbs are inner).

A lot of this has been a huge shift in thinking.

The inner city used to be working class. Better off people bought bigger blocks a little further away.

My parents bought an IP (a small terrace) in North Melbourne many years ago. They bought there because it was something they could afford- suburbia would have cost too much.

That property cost them a lot of anxiety, as it was the subject of a lot of police drug raids, and was left in a far worse condition than when they bought it. They offloaded it for perhapas not much profit.

Of couse, it would have been worth a motza now.

Many of those inner city suburbs have shot up in value- especially as the reno brigade have gone in and made hovels into mansions. Some of the early renovators in some of those suburbs must have been very brave people.

I would not have had the faith in property to be one of the first 5% (or even 40%) to start a gentrification of a working class suburb.

("The Harp in the South", by Ruth Park, set in Sydney's Surrey Hills, shows how much of a down and out working class suburb it was many years ago. An interesting read, not just from a real estate point of view. Disclaimer- I invested, many years ago, in the miniseries based on that book . Though I do not get proceeds any more.)

 

[Xenia]

What was that song in West Side Story?

God I despair at what a nation of lazy American wanna bees that we are becoming.

ciao

Nor

Qu 1. What is more lazy?

1. working 7am to 9pm, raising 2 kids (almost 3), running 2 very busy real estate agencies that are growing by the minute, constantly looking to buy more properties, looking after current developments and renovations and constantly keeping on top of current legislation, market trends and new ideas (and eating out because there is just no time left for anything else)

Or

2. having time to watch west side story (I assume it's some kind of film) and memorising it's scripts?

Qu 2.
what is it that you wanna bee?

(I personally dont wanna bee anything that I already am not!)

 

[Xenia]

Maybe slightly off topic but hubby and I just returned from US trip and were absolutely stunned at the size of meals

We asked for a piece of pie on one occassion and said we would share. The size they bought was enough for 3 people and I called the waitress over and asked here if they bought us a larger serve because they knew we were sharing. She said no it was their normal single serve.

I had always heard about the serving sizes in the US and from our experience have to agree. They are way tooo large. And interestingly even the expensive restaurants had much larger servings than our expensive restaurants. So it was not just limited to "middle America" restaurants.

Love it, I'm a wog , love big serving sizes. I could never understand how someone could have this little sandwitch for lunch and be satisfied. Or order an entree size of something for dinner. That just wont do for me, the bigger the better!

 

[Xenia]

Due to time constraints, I have taken to cooking up enormous amounts of food (big trays of lasagne, pies, casseroles, pasta dishes, rice dishes etc) and freezing them. Worked out that including electricity used to cook the meal it works out to cost about $3.50 each per serve. However, this does not include using dishwasher to wash dishes. If I had the money I would definately eat out more as it is also a chance to get out of your own environment for a while.

Tried this!
We ended up feeding whole trays of lasagne and other meals to the dog because they just did not taste right after being frozen! I wasted all that time cooking then went out anyway

It probably has something to do with my cooking, and hubby hates left overs, wouldn't touch them!

 

[KEISHA]

WOW what a woman!

Xenia, I got tired just reading what you do and take my hat off to you.

Just reading what you do, would love to see your comments on the smoke alarm thread.

On this whole thing...Im a little bit envious of Kristine, would love to eat out...have so many food intolerances that eating in is much safer! Just cant be bothered eating out, risking it and getting sick. But was thinking that eating out at restaurants could actually be healthier (of course depending on the menu choices) as they cook with fresh ingredients and these days it is really hard to buy anything without preservatives or numbers...trust me I know!

We pretty much only eat fresh veg and meats but even then the soy sauce or sweet chilli or whatever you want to use has all sorts of stuff in it.

Gotta agree that with kids, they need to know what to do and be taught to do it but otherwise whatever works for the individual I reckon.

 

[Xenia]

Wouldn't swap eating out for cooking at home for all the money in the world.

"please please mum can I do the peas"

"I've set the table" (imagine beaming proud smile on 4 yo face)

"I want to do the dishes"

Cooking with the kids, sitting down to a family meal most nights of the week.....nothing can beat it.

I don't get the cost analysis either. My experince is that eating at home is far far cheaper. Can you show us your calcs?

Also gotta love colesonline for the staple shopping. Walk to local shops for bread, fruit, meat.

I totally agree, I love sitting down to a family meal at home too and I love cooking. However, lately what I would usually love to do has turned into an ordeal!
Both hubby and I leave the office at 5, pick up one child each (from different schools) and meet at home by 6pm (it takes that long). There is usually nothing in the fridge so if we want to cook something, we would need to go shopping and take the time to prepare it. Kids are grumpy becasue they cannot wait and want to eat NOW. It's just so much easier to eat out, come home, have nothing to clean up, read to the kids and put them to bed. Then start working again!

The cost analysis was done by calculating our "earning capacity" how much money we were able to generate in the last 3 months though our businesses and investing and dividing that by the time we put into it. When you consider developments etc, it turns out to be thousands per hour so a $100 bill for eating out becomes insignificant!

Our time was considered to be the most expensive factor not the cost of restaurant meals vs buying groceries!!!

 

[geoffw]

having time to watch west side story (I assume it's some kind of film) and memorising it's scripts?

Ah, Xenia, you're a mere spring chicken.

West Side Story was a film from 1961. It won 10 academy awards.

It's so old, that it was old when I went to uni.

But I have fond memories of watching it at a student union theatre with a young lady and not seeing half of the film. Though nothing improper happened .

Though frozen meals and families?

We couldn't survive without freezing meals. Lasagne is not one which freezes well. Cooked meat dishes freeze well, ones with veggies less so, with pasta- not much good.

I can see though, that if you are working such hours, raising a family, and with a husband who doesn't like leftovers, that home cooking is not much of an option. And especially not bulk cooking and freezing.

I'd suspect that a big part of the cost benefit analysis for you, is the loss of business (or opportunities, or whatever) from taking time away from those things at which you are doing well in order to provide a home cooked meal. I'm not sure if other people who have reached a different conclusion from you have needed to factor in this cost.

 

[WinstonWolfe]

1. working 7am to 9pm, raising 2 kids (almost 3), running 2 very busy real estate agencies that are growing by the minute, constantly looking to buy more properties, looking after current developments and renovations and constantly keeping on top of current legislation, market trends and new ideas (and eating out because there is just no time left for anything else)

Not commenting on the specifics of your business and life Xenia, as I don't know you, but I think many people in small business see a certain net profit and growth rate unfolding, and delude themselves they are onto a good thing.

However, when the business owners have to compromise on a balanced life, esp when kids are involved, I often wonder, if the business is so successful, why can't it buy the principals their down time back, in the form of additional quality staff.

Of course, no simple answer to this. Defences often used are, during early growth phase the profits aren't there to pay for high quality staff. Or there is a lot of original value add thought and execution required from the principals to get the systems up and automated, and consolidate growth.

At the end of the day, I believe the mistake many start ups make is in not placing a high enough opportunity cost on their down time. I believe downtime should be valued at no less than 5 times your work time hourly rate.

Why? cos you cannot sustain working during down time. Get your life out of balance and 6 months later your body or mind or both are 18 months older.

And often the opportunity cost of neglected relationships and child rearing are clearer with hindsight.

Anyway, this isn't a criticism of your specific choices Xenia. But it is reality for many in small business.

 

[Ali G]

As much as I love eating out, when we go through phases of doing it too often I just end up craving home-cooked meals. Restaurant food tastes so good because all too often they use the extra salt, fat, butter or cream that you omit from your cooking at home. So, it's nice every now and then, but for the most part, I find cooking and eating a meal at home the most satisfying. It might be a bit mushy*, but I also feel it is more nurturing to cook for your family and share a meal together, but that's just me!

For people who are not so concerned about the cost of eating out, there are certainly some great places to go. Japanese is a great healthy option for one. No chicken nuggets there for the kids but I am sure it does them no harm.

Whether you dine in or dine out, a good back up plan is always a batch of hearty soup in the freezer. Something like minestrone or vegie soup is a piece of cake to make, is cheap, nutritious, freezes well and reheats in a flash.

Good on you Xenia for making things work for you in the way that suits you best! Your life sounds very hectic so you sound like you are doing well to be keeping on top of everything.

* My sentiments, not my food!

 

[Norwester]

Crikey,

Another one that thinks she's getting called lazy.........

Xenia,

My post was a generalisation regarding the impending state of our nation and not directed at you, Kristine or any other working woman on this board. I apologise for the lack of clarification and if either of you find any personal offense in it then let me know and I will delete it.

By all means feel free to let your own posts stand.

And as for West Side Story it was actually a 1957 Broadway musical before it was a film:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Story

ciao

Nor

 

[Norwester]

Oops almost forgot,

And as for the business issue:

It is my belief that any growth orientated business that revolves around or is entirely dependent on the direct input of the principle/s for it's success is doomed to eventual failure.

No doubt I'll probably get lots of flack on this, but having been there and done it myself I do know something about it.

Eating out, getting in home help are all great time savers, but in my opinion are stop gap measures that do not address the primary issues that occur with the exponential expansion that can occur when a successful business grows.

Naturally,never having been there before I can concur with WW that it becomes a denial / control issue. You make every excuse under the sun not to hand over the reigns and let what you have developed work.

It took a road accident that occured after working 48 hours straight for me to eventually come to that conclusion. I sincerely hope that no one else around here has to reach my conclusion the way I did.

The candle can always be burned at both ends.........for a while.

ciao

Nor

 

[bundy1964]

I think share trading basics and property renting should be part of your childrens education too.

That is from a childless person though.

 

[geoffw]

And as for West Side Story it was actually a 1957 Broadway musical before it was a film:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Side_Story

Correct.

But probably a lot more people saw the film than saw the 1957 musical.

Even this old man was too young at the time for that

 

[wylie]

I am a stay at home mum right now, and loving my down time. But I did go back to work after baby number one. Left the house at 7am, got home at 6pm. My mother minded him, which was fantastic, but did some damage to our relationship which took a few years to get right again. During all that time hubby was studying two nights a week and sometimes Saturdays so I had everything on my head. I did that for two years, pregnant for the last seven months of that. It was hard, hard work and my weekends went in a blur of washing, ironing, cooking etc etc. I remember one time hand washing (something I never do now) with one hand while holding my baby cradled next to my hip breastfeeding him. I didn't have time to do both.

I would NOT do it again.

I also grew up with parents who ran a six day a week business. Shop opened 7am, closed 6pm and Saturday. I would NEVER do that to a child of mine. I hated being tied to a business which I had no say in buying, but had no choice. We almost lived at the shop. It was exciting for the first bit but we soon tired of the long hours, and the housework and catching up on the weekends.

My parents didn't buy this shop until I was 11 and had it for four years until they were burned out. We didn't have a holiday in that time. Prior to that, my mother did part time work at a couple of places and was away Friday nights and Saturdays working at the TAB, and with a father and two brothers, I hated my mum not being home.

For all those reasons, I would NEVER run a small business. But each to their own. If someone had told me 20 years ago that I would be a housewife, I would have laughed at them, but with three noisy boys (two teenagers) in the house I love my "me" time in a quiet house while they are at uni and school.

I am sure I will change and may find some work at some stage, but to me, I would rather be moderately wealthy and happy, rather than give up what I now have in order to have a bit more money. No contest.

I really admire what working mothers do and I have "been there - done that" but don't want to go there again.

Wylie

 

[Xenia]

It is my belief that any growth orientated business that revolves around or is entirely dependent on the direct input of the principle/s for it's success is doomed to eventual failure.

Nor

I absolutely agree Nor. Both you and WW have a very valid point and one that we are addressing at the very moment. In the last month, we have hired 2 new support staff and 2 business coaches that are helping us get the business to become automated and systems dependent.

I delibrately take a sharholding profit out of the business and have chosen not to take a salary for several reasons, I don't want to pay all the bs that comes with taking a salary the biggest of all which is superannuation!
I left my "job" as a medical scientist at 33 because I did not want to be employed and I never will!

Both my business partner and I are working very hard at the moment to get systems in place so that the business is not dependent on any one person (especially us). We made the descision to do this even if it runs at a loss at this time because if we can't get it working then I don't want it. To me it is an investment not a corner deli that we have to work as a happy little family until we're 60 then pass it to our kids! That's what we don't want!

Baby number 3 is arriving in 6 weeks for me, so systems ready or not, it just has to work without me for a while

 

[Xenia]

I am a stay at home mum right now, and loving my down time. But I did go back to work after baby number one. Left the house at 7am, got home at 6pm. My mother minded him, which was fantastic, but did some damage to our relationship which took a few years to get right again. During all that time hubby was studying two nights a week and sometimes Saturdays so I had everything on my head. I did that for two years, pregnant for the last seven months of that. It was hard, hard work and my weekends went in a blur of washing, ironing, cooking etc etc. I remember one time hand washing (something I never do now) with one hand while holding my baby cradled next to my hip breastfeeding him. I didn't have time to do both.

I would NOT do it again.

I also grew up with parents who ran a six day a week business. Shop opened 7am, closed 6pm and Saturday. I would NEVER do that to a child of mine. I hated being tied to a business which I had no say in buying, but had no choice. We almost lived at the shop. It was exciting for the first bit but we soon tired of the long hours, and the housework and catching up on the weekends.

My parents didn't buy this shop until I was 11 and had it for four years until they were burned out. We didn't have a holiday in that time. Prior to that, my mother did part time work at a couple of places and was away Friday nights and Saturdays working at the TAB, and with a father and two brothers, I hated my mum not being home.

For all those reasons, I would NEVER run a small business. But each to their own. If someone had told me 20 years ago that I would be a housewife, I would have laughed at them, but with three noisy boys (two teenagers) in the house I love my "me" time in a quiet house while they are at uni and school.

I am sure I will change and may find some work at some stage, but to me, I would rather be moderately wealthy and happy, rather than give up what I now have in order to have a bit more money. No contest.

I really admire what working mothers do and I have "been there - done that" but don't want to go there again.

Wylie

Good on you Wylie for doing something that you like doing. A good friend of mine once told me that you just can never tell what is best for your kids so you need to do what is best for you.

My mum was a stay at home mum and I was always embarassed for her throughout school because she was uneducated, didn't know as much as other mums and was dependent on a man as her only financial plan!

Looking at her now, she is 59, no skills, no education and totally dependent on others. She has no control of what she does, what she thinks or where she goes. Her life now is MY kids, she loves cooking and looking after them and it's sad that that's all she knows. We choose to pay for day care instead of leaving them with my mum for free because we don't think she is capable of stimulating their minds she just cooks better food!

My mum thought that staying home to look after us instead of going to uni or working was the best thing to do. NOT FOR US! Both my brother and I think that we would have been better of if she was working, had a little more knowledge about life, and was not dependent on a man for financial support.

My view now is that one of the responsibilities as a parent is to be a good role model for them. My mum is a negative role model for my brother and I (exactly what we DONT want to be). So I have become the complete opposite because of my child hood experiences with a stay at home mum.

I don't know what my kids will choose to do, maybe my daughter will resent not having me and stay home to look after her kids or maybe she will take over the properties and businesses and become a billionaire driven by our enthusiasm and support. We just don't know what kids will choose to see in the future so all we can do is what is best for us today.

I tried to stay at home and look after kids, I have way too much drive and ambition and if I had a choice between being a stay at home mum and death I would not choose to stay home! I hated it! So now I'm doing what I'm good at and what makes me happy!

 

[WinstonWolfe]

Nicely said Xenia. I suppose there's a middle ground between the two extremes people are envisioning here.

I can understand giving yourself a time limit on how long you will push yourself to get a business rock and rolling.....and how long you will eat out

though to sustain a lifestyle of long hours and eating out year after year, I think is not what you might have originally had in mind when starting this thread.

Anyway, power to you. You come across as a logical, switched on, and determined, and am sure your judgement will guide you well through the early days.