The Investors Club
- Thread starter DJM
- Start date
they are technically not REA's, they can skirt the rules of acting for both parties that would normally apply to us...
happy to stand corrected, but that is how it was explained to me...
happy to stand corrected, but that is how it was explained to me...
agree completely...
Hi Dazzling,
I have been to a couple of TIC's meetings in the past. As I come from Melbourne I happened to ask which areas the club was investing in, in Melbourne. The support member looked up his stock list, and came up with a list of suburbs that in my view would certainly not deliver superior capital growth or even a half decent rental yield. So I decided never to go back to their meetings!
Of course, when you come up against an experienced investor, who doesn't bow to your implied authority...btw, owning 2 club properties worth 250K each with a total loan of 475K doesn't qualify you to stand up there and tell people you are well on your way to having red sleeves on your shirt (a member of the Property Millionaire's Club), things don't seem to go so swell in the Club atmosphere.
This was another concern of mine. The person leading the seminar I attended was mainly interested in getting me to fill out a finance inquiry form. I didn't need to do that, as I already had my finance organized.
While the club's intentions may be good, I must say that the presenter at the meeting I attended had a very limited knowledge of property investing. Or she was unable to portray her knowledge in a logical and coherent manner. Her presentation was extremely poor. I went away thinking that I wouldn't trust this person to make an asset selection choice for me. I was confident that I could do a much better job myself!
Regards Jason.
I went to one of their meetings about 6 mths ago. They were pushing house and land packages in outer areas like Point Cook and Cranbourne. The price was $250-300k IIRC. The houses were a slightly cut-down version of what normal consumers were offered and the land component would be around $100 or maybe $150k.
These would rent for the low 200s per week, with about half as much again for depreciation, so you'd be out by maybe $5-10k pa if on a good income (which is quite affordable to many).
If you were to go independent, competing offerings might be:
1. New house and land package pitched at FHBs. Seem to start around $200k for a cheapie in Melton. Have all the depreciation benefits of TIC's choice, though having something built must be a stressor compared to buying established.
2. As per 1 but a couple of years old. Most of the depreciation but less stressful as it's already built.
3. Established house around $250-300k in suburb closer in. For instance a place like Lalor or Thomastown has all local facilities, transport, proximity to ring roads, and is about 20km from the CBD. Less stress, poorer cashflow (no depreciation)
4. One or two cheap ex-commission places (around $160k in somewhere like Doveton). High land value component, no depreciation, poss subdivision potential, maybe dodgy tenants.
One could make a reasonable case for any of these.
I think as the IC grew, the need for more and more stock brought down the quality. When I bought through the IC the stock was only <15km of the CBD in small blocks. After a while they started selling H&L, and yields started falling.
If you are interested in renos, development, etc I doubt you'd be interested in the IC stock. You could also argue that older houses in established suburbs offer better long term gains than house and land packages in new suburbs where yours is one of hundreds. If you don't know what to do, you can certainly do worse. With what I know now, I could have bought better, but then I may not have started without any prodding.
Alex
If you are interested in renos, development, etc I doubt you'd be interested in the IC stock. You could also argue that older houses in established suburbs offer better long term gains than house and land packages in new suburbs where yours is one of hundreds. If you don't know what to do, you can certainly do worse. With what I know now, I could have bought better, but then I may not have started without any prodding.
Alex
That's the very chap....Lisson, thanks.
No need to be modest greyman. I'm paying attention, no need to worry about that, when it comes to big numbers with dollar signs in front of them, I'm all eyes and ears. Trouble is there is a distinct lack of numbers to look at in any of your responses. After all, this is solely a numbers game.
There's no need to "believe" things that you've written. You have, it was a fact you've written it. For proof I can quote it back to you to confirm your belief....but I'm guessing you know you wrote it....cos you wrote it....no need to believe it, you're just being coy, so richly admired and encouraged in modern language nowadays.
Trouble is greyman, these "facts" about TIC (an unfortunate acronym wouldn't you agree) aren't exactly facts. The legal and financial side of Lisson, vs the fluffy wuffy feel good side of the 'Club'. We all know when push comes to shove which one takes priority in big Kev and Kathy's heirachy of needs.
But I love his hat....a most endearing attachment, and no doubt the most photographed of hats in all of modern Australian history !! Great stuff...
....bet....suspect....style....c'mon greyman, let's get rid of the wishy washy feel good language and start talking numbers. I'm only interested in talking about two little numbers.....cap growth and nett yield.....what can TIC do for me ?? What numbers can ya get me ??
Yep - been there, asked the questions, got the answers. The answer's definitely yes. Not maybe, not could be. It's definitely a yes !!! The TIC's range of property's is almost exclusively limited to new build residentials. Every other type of property is ignored.
Examples of properties that your vaunted organisation wouldn't touch include ;
Residential development sites
Residential, established normal houses
Normal blocks of land
Rural broadacre
Hotels
Container yards
CBD offices
Shopping malls
Small scale strip shops
Wharves
Factories (green title or strata)
....I could go on.
Thing is greyman....ol' Lisson doesn't have a contractual, legally binding commercial arrangement with any of these Vendors....they only do deals with residential developers....and only then to flog off the finished product.
So if your scope of purchase strays from buying new or very nearly new residential units that the developers have slapped up, TIC can't really help the average investor.
Once again greyman, she's not about intelligence, or insults, or anything fluffy like that.....you're taking your eye off the ball son. She's about numbers this game....CG and NY. That's all. Don't go getting all emotional on me now. Let's stick to the numbers.....that's what this game we play is all about.
Although I agree with a couple of comments regarding TIC may be a grand place to start if you are absolutely clueless about all aspects of property investment. Legally hopeless. Financially hopeless. Construction hopeless. Contractually (both sales and leasing) negotiating numpties. If you are this way inclined, then yes TIC could very well be the ticket.
Forget the semantics and emotions and feelings. These have no place when it comes to numbers.
Do you wish to discuss and debate numbers ??
In some cases, it's because they don't know any better. They may get SOME growth. It doesn't mean they can't do better.
IC properties are very much limited to new and near-new units/townhouses and house and land packages. One very big market: older houses / units is basically excluded. Are you saying that IC properties have better growth rates than older houses or units?
Alex
Well BIG is sort of the somersoft Brisbane chapter I guess? Yup, great group and always really interesting presentations. They don't sell you anything, it's all about education and networking with other investors afterwards. I've missed all the good talks this year because of work travel, unfortunately. Will miss the one tonight too
. If you go - have fun!
kaf
BIG is definitely worth attending once or twice to make up your own mind, I have attended a lot of the meetings over the last 3 yearss.
Am I missing something? Just went to TIC website and they only had 3 properties listed for the whole country (all 3 on the Goldcoast with about a 4.5-5% yield).
Never had any experience with them at all so I won't comment on them specifically, but I will say in general, I am always weary of companies that have deals with developers to sell new properties in estates/complexes. It's more of a hand holding exercise than any "value" purchases.
If they are looking for the best properties for their members/clients (again, not talking specifically about TIC), then why limit themselves to certain developments where they know the developer? Why not find one in SA, another 2 in different suburbs in Perth, 1 down in Launceston etc. Because there are no economies of scale and deals to be done with the vendors, and therefore profit to be made (whether the profit comes from an increased sale price, or a cutting of the developes margin is up to each indivdual project I guess).
What about the brand new properties you could have bought in Adelaide last year for a 6% yield? Were they mentioned? Or the old properties on a 7%+ yield?
Never had any experience with them at all so I won't comment on them specifically, but I will say in general, I am always weary of companies that have deals with developers to sell new properties in estates/complexes. It's more of a hand holding exercise than any "value" purchases.
If they are looking for the best properties for their members/clients (again, not talking specifically about TIC), then why limit themselves to certain developments where they know the developer? Why not find one in SA, another 2 in different suburbs in Perth, 1 down in Launceston etc. Because there are no economies of scale and deals to be done with the vendors, and therefore profit to be made (whether the profit comes from an increased sale price, or a cutting of the developes margin is up to each indivdual project I guess).
What about the brand new properties you could have bought in Adelaide last year for a 6% yield? Were they mentioned? Or the old properties on a 7%+ yield?
Hiya
I cant help butt in here !
I have several dozen clients that got a start with organisations like the TIC.
Good or bad or indifferent ........dunno, most of these clients would not have done too much by themselves and the subtle push that they received to learn to fly has started them on a journey.
One of the reasons why many wont put up their hand now is because in this environment they would often get the "hey you dill " you could have done much better........
Due diligence is a good thing, but lets be careful with the words we use.
ta
rolf
I cant help butt in here !
I have several dozen clients that got a start with organisations like the TIC.
Good or bad or indifferent ........dunno, most of these clients would not have done too much by themselves and the subtle push that they received to learn to fly has started them on a journey.
One of the reasons why many wont put up their hand now is because in this environment they would often get the "hey you dill " you could have done much better........
Due diligence is a good thing, but lets be careful with the words we use.
ta
rolf
I'm not denying that Rolf, as I said, I think it's a great hand holding exercise for those that otherwise would'nt take the plunge. But if these same people were aware of sites and groups such as SS, they could probably get themselves a better deal after a couple months of reading and Q&A sessions.
But I think you're right, if the alternative is to do nothing, then viva TIC
But I think you're right, if the alternative is to do nothing, then viva TIC
Hi Steve
Agreed
Yes, its about education, problem I have faced often is ..................gees I dont have the time for research Rolf, im really busy ............... Im majoring in Home and Away or the like ..........
ta
rolf
Agreed
Yes, its about education, problem I have faced often is ..................gees I dont have the time for research Rolf, im really busy ............... Im majoring in Home and Away or the like ..........
ta
rolf
lol
Personally I'm majoring in Simpsons with a minor in Family Guy and about a dozen other subjects A quick check of the TIC website shows a total of 264 properties available across Australia (except WA, SA & TAS) including both new and second hand. The types of properties available include house & land, houses, apartments, townhouses, & duplexes. Rental returns in recent times have ranged anywhere from around 3.6% to over 7% depending upon property type & location.
Do you have a password to access TICs list of available properties? If so, there is definitely a lot more then 3 listings.
EDIT:
For what it's worth, whether the arguement is leaning towards or against TIC. Thanks for your posts Greyman. All input and posts from everyone definitely goes towards getting a wider view of TIC.
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Sorry Greyman, I didn't realise you need a password to get in
I did a search in each state on the site and the only one with results was GC with 3.Similar threads
