The road to damascus

[Monopoly]

I have had people who know me well start sending me pm's implying that my continued friendship is at risk because of my ongoing comments re Steve or post implying that my posts are somehow insincere or shouldn't be heard...

Continued friendship with whom Seech??? Them??? If THEY are threatening to disassociate themselves with you, well that's one thing (and their choice) but if they are inferring OTHERS will pull away, then that is just their perception. Either way, you've lost nothing!!!

 

[Takestock]

So I certainly don't see what the need is to analyse this to death, as if the future of the universe depended on it.

...and particularly on a PROPERTY forum; remember the name: Somersoft Property Investors Forum.

Well said GreatPig.

TakeStock

 

[Monopoly]

...and particularly on a PROPERTY forum; remember the name: Somersoft Property Investors Forum.

Well said GreatPig.

TakeStock

I understand what you're saying TakeStock, and albeit I agree with GP "there is no need to analyse this to death" BUT....it is under the "coffee lounge" banner and as such falls into the same category as many other NON-PROPERTY related topics ie. weight reduction, body building/exercise, recipes, holiday tips, jokes, ditties and useless other doo-littles!!! All of which, I don't see a problem with/in people wanting "to share"!!!

 

[GreatPig]

it is under the "coffee lounge" banner

I'm beginning to think discussions about the Navra funds might be better placed under the Caveat Emptor banner.

GP

 

[ani]

I have had people who know me well start sending me pm's implying that my continued friendship is at risk because of my ongoing comments re Steve or post implying that my posts are somehow insincere or shouldn't be heard...

I'm also tired of receiving other pm's and kudos from members who agree with my concerns but don't come out and say anything.

My view up to now has been I have gained a significant benifit from my involvement with this forum , so I want to put something back by voicing my opinions , rather than keeping them to my self.

I've decided to go with the view held by several people I know . They have concerns but don't voice them because they believe it's up to each individual to take responsibility for their own financial decisions.

I'm continuing to wonder whether my involvement with the forum is really worth it.

See Change

Seech

I think you involvement in the forum is definitely worth it. You put a lot of thought into your posts and I, for one, enjoy reading them.

If "friends" think emotional blackmail about navra or anything else is acceptable as part of their friendship with you, then they need to take a good hard look at themselves.

I certainly did take the original post on this thread as "tongue in cheek" which I apologised for. In this case, you were maybe a bit obscure in your choice of words!

Stay with us and stay honest to yourself......in the end, we only have to stay true to ourselves. Don't worry what so called "friends" think!

 

[Ruby]

I'm continuing to wonder whether my involvement with the forum is really worth it.

See Change

Personally I’d hate to see you back off your involvement in Somersoft seech. You have been a very valued member around here for years and your involvement is very much appreciated. You’ve also suffered your fair amount of abuse over that time and you’ve never let it bother you before. But I can understand the hurt you are feeling at the moment.

Lately there has been numerous comments elsewhere about somersoft,, its members and moderation. Personally I’m very proud of Somersoft and its members. Of course no one is perfect, but considering the amount of members and posts we have on a daily basis, we have very few problems. We should all be extremely proud of what we have achieved since its beginning in 1999. If people are unhappy with how things are run around here, there are plenty of options out there for them.

Please also remember, as has already been said…….this is the coffee lounge and we do allow discussions outside property here………..just don’t make a mess on the tables.

 

[Monopoly]

Please also remember, as has already been said…….this is the coffee lounge and we do allow discussions outside property here…..just don’t make a mess on the tables.

That's right, use protection!!!! (FYI....I'm referring to using A COASTER!!!)

 

[see_change]

I'm beginning to think discussions about the Navra funds might be better placed under the Caveat Emptor banner.

GP

Very appropriate

See Change

 

[see_change]

...and particularly on a PROPERTY forum; remember the name: Somersoft Property Investors Forum.

Well said GreatPig.

TakeStock

Take stock

If you'd been around for a while you'd be aware that people do discuss things outside property .

I don't think as a blow in with an obvious vested agenda you havn't earned the right to tell people on this forum what they should and shouldn't be discussing.

See Change

 

[MarkB]

I have had people who know me well start sending me pm's implying that my continued friendship is at risk because of my ongoing comments re Steve

As asy's sign off says:

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind."

~Dr.Seuss


M

 

[monoply]

I would have thought the topic heading "The Road to Damascus" made it pretty clear See_Changes' comments were tongue in cheek.

I agree with GP. Navra is a tiny blip on the radar in the world of investments, and would hardly raise a mention normaly, if not for a few posts here by Steve.

Cheers
mono

 

[TryHard]

Now I'm really Seech

I think you have a right to freedom of speech and stating your opinion, and others have a right to question and discuss those views - as you said - we are all here to learn.

This thread started out sounding tongue-in-cheek based on your past comments about the topic. Then you clarified that you've in fact changed your mind and are considering buying shares in Navra.

Then most recently you said :

The reality is that I have no such Financial imperitive in this debate. I do believe there are two sides to most debates however a vocal minority here seem to have no interest in hear the other side.

I have had people who know me well start sending me pm's implying that my continued friendship is at risk because of my ongoing comments re Steve or post implying that my posts are somehow insincere or shouldn't be heard...

It'd be a shame if you reconsidered your valuable contribution on this forum purely because people are seeking clarity on your posts on a particular subject which seem to be confusing, to say the least ?

I think we would all agree with Great Pig that Caveat Emptor should apply to investments in Navra Invest, (and to every single investment decision we make). So surely pro-Navra, anti-Navra and impartial posters would all benefit from understanding how you went from a position like http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26056, to considering buying shares in the company in the space of 2 weeks ?

Cheers
Carl

 

[MarkB]

To Each Their Own

Posted by Try Hard (Carl)

The HUGE differentiator of InvestEd versus, dare I say it, SomerSoft, is that InvestEd has insulated itself from certain vocal detractors who take otherwise innocent questions and answers into long-winded, aggressive, circular and damaging arguments. I realise that is not the 'norm' at SS, but it happens.

InvestEd also offers people who actually ARE experts in areas other than property, related to investing, rather than grandstanding by people who 'claim' to be experts but to my way of thinking have offered some damaging and unconstructive comment to innocent bystanders.

and...

Sim, hoping moderation will stop the 'great unwashed' hijacking the intent of decent threads is either extremely optimistic or naive. Some of the most offensive threads on SS were moderated, but the whole 'overly generous freedom of speech' allowed them to go feral.

and then...

Personally I think its a positive thing some forum members are 'vocal' - that is essentially the basis of a forum, after all. I am sure we would all appreciate if Steve Navra was more vocal, for example. I differentiate between being vocal/having an opinion, and being an arrogant pain in the a...., which we have seen happen on some other open fora.



It's appropriate that a guy whose avatar is George W Bush waxes lyrical about freedom of speech, so long as it is what he wants to hear.

Well in the spirit of this whole US Government thing, I am going to quote a line from the movie Born on the 4th of July:

People say that if you don't love America, then get the hell out.

Well, I love America.


And thanks Carl for showing all of us over here what you think of Somersoft.

Will you be getting the hell out?

Or maybe you'd like to explain why you spend so much time on a forum where you clearly have issues with both members and moderators?

Mark

btw. I've asked a reasonable question based on a public statement, so don't bother trying to flame me.

 

[TryHard]

Dear Pitt_St

Thanks for quoting me out of context - the references you've posted are talking about certain individuals, and not Seechange, who I was asking the question of.

And I don't intend to resurrect discussions of the posts or people I was referring to ... in reference to those quotes from 'the other' forum you've gone to the trouble to post, as membership there is now free, the entire discussion can be read in context.

The post to which you've replied was simply remaining on topic of this particluar thread, and asking a genuine question of Seechange whose opinion I think matters.

As I have stated numerous times, (you can even go find the posts) I think the property advice and discussion on Somersoft forums is second to none. Nothing is likely to change my opinion in that regard.

And as it seems the meaning was lost on you, the avatar is meant as tongue-in-cheek. As you're into movie quotes, as Spotswoode from Team America said "Please, Gary, I'm not from Hollywood. I'm not going to **** your mouth and my time is extremely valuable."

Keep smiling
Carl

 

[skater]

I'm beginning to think discussions about the Navra funds might be better placed under the Caveat Emptor banner.

GP

Yes! Absolutely!

I am neither pro Navra, nor anti Navra, but I do believe that this forum does have it's share of people with a vested interest in NavraInvest. I don't believe that the amount of discussion we have on this subject is balanced and people should remember that & not go blindly following where others (often with a vested interest) lead. At the end of the day the comment below by Great Pig should be remembered by all.

Investments go up, investments go down, some perform well, some don't. It's the nature of the beast. That's why there are things called diversification and choice. If Steve hadn't spent a bit of time here, the Navra funds would be but a tiny blip on the radar, barely rating a mention.

And Seech, you are a valuable member of the forum. We need people like you, so don't go & leave due to a small minority.

I have had people who know me well start sending me pm's implying that my continued friendship is at risk because of my ongoing comments re Steve or post implying that my posts are somehow insincere or shouldn't be heard...

If this is happening, they really aren't friends, are they? Move on & realise that there are a whole lot of people that are not following blindly where Steve Navra & his disciples lead.

 

[see_change]

Now I'm really Seech

It'd be a shame if you reconsidered your valuable contribution on this forum purely because people are seeking clarity on your posts on a particular subject which seem to be confusing, to say the least ?

People seeking clarification has nothing to do with it , and if you read my posts , which you seem to be an expert on , you'd be aware of that

So surely pro-Navra, anti-Navra and impartial posters would all benefit from understanding how you went from a position like http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26056, to considering buying shares in the company in the space of 2 weeks ?

Cheers
Carl

Again if you'd read my posts , you would be aware of the reasons for this.


The irony about this post carl http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26056 is that it's not specifically an attack on Steve , more pointing out the irony in the attitude of his proponents , but that point seemed to be missed by every one in their rush to critisise me about my " attitude " towards Steve.

To the best of my recollection I've never had a problem ( ie arguements etc , though I'm sure if this isn't true , some will happily point that out , I will happily admit if I am wrong on this point or any other ..... ) in any discussion with Steve , and I have met him several times. We do have differing view points on investing strategies ( I'm a "trend follower" where as he is a " value investor" ) and I have participated in several debates in which his methods have been debated. To the best of my knowledge my comments within these debates have stuck to views that I think are resonable and easily defensible .

In particular I have been critical of people who have strayed outside these boundaries including people who have made comments against Steve , inparticular Bill L , who's post was responsible for Steve leaving this forum. I'm sure that Bill will be able to recall I have pulled him up when he implied that rapidly deleted post was acceptable.

What I do have a problem with is the attitude of vocal Steve fans.

See Change

 

[GreatPig]

there are a whole lot of people that are not following blindly where Steve Navra & his disciples lead.

To be fair, I think Steve has gone to some length to explain his methodologies, allowing people to make better-informed decisions. While some may be blindly following, I don't think anyone who's followed the discussions here or at his seminars can complain that they were blindly led.

And I agree with Seech: while as a business manager Steve should expect to be questioned about his company's performance, he shouldn't have to put up with questions or comments outside of that. And I don't see why anyone outside the business should feel the need to so fervently defend it, except perhaps to try and ramp up the share or unit price. Defending Steve against more personal attacks would be entirely appropriate though.

Regarding fund performance, depending on your outlook the good or the bad thing about managed funds is that there's someone other than yourself to blame when they don't perform. IMO, a good investment plan should allow for the possibility of any investment not performing. When that happens, a good investor will simply adjust things in line with the plan. Unless it happens to be the '87 stock market crash, it shouldn't really warrant making a song and dance about.

GP

 

[Les]

To be fair, I think Steve has gone to some length to explain his methodologies, allowing people to make better-informed decisions. While some may be blindly following, I don't think anyone who's followed the discussions here or at his seminars can complain that they were blindly led.

Have to agree with you there, GP - Steve has been very up-front and accommodating in explaining his methods, whether via forums, or his one-day or evening workshops.

If anyone were blindly led, I think that would've been of their choice,

Regards,

 

[BBarnes]

To be fair, I think Steve has gone to some length to explain his methodologies, allowing people to make better-informed decisions. While some may be blindly following, I don't think anyone who's followed the discussions here or at his seminars can complain that they were blindly led.

And I agree with Seech: while as a business manager Steve should expect to be questioned about his company's performance, he shouldn't have to put up with questions or comments outside of that. And I don't see why anyone outside the business should feel the need to so fervently defend it, except perhaps to try and ramp up the share or unit price. Defending Steve against more personal attacks would be entirely appropriate though.

Regarding fund performance, depending on your outlook the good or the bad thing about managed funds is that there's someone other than yourself to blame when they don't perform. IMO, a good investment plan should allow for the possibility of any investment not performing. When that happens, a good investor will simply adjust things in line with the plan. Unless it happens to be the '87 stock market crash, it shouldn't really warrant making a song and dance about.

GP

Hi, all,
THIS reply from GP is the type of reply that I have been hoping would follow some of the posts I have read recently.
I hope all participants of this, and other debates/posts, take note.
It is the BALANCE in GP's post that makes the difference, and keeps me here.
Nicely said, GP
Bill

 

[TryHard]

... if you'd read my posts , you would be aware of the reasons for this.

Seech, I have read your posts, maybe I missed some, but I've obviously not seen the bit that explains how you can go from apparently anti-Navra-everything to considering investing in the company's future ? I assume you mean you're prepared to invest in it while you still remain vehemently opposed to the company's ideals and trading methods ? Surely that ain't a smart investment decision ?

... What I do have a problem with is the attitude of vocal Steve fans.

I followed the link to the 'ironical' thread and don't see how any responses are different to what you'd expect from "either side". If you walk into a pub and punch the bouncer in the face, the other bouncers will try to kill you, and your mates will jump in and protect you, whether you were right or wrong. Nothing 'ironic' in any of the reactions really, unless the irony is completely lost on me somehow.

I actively seek intelligent people debating the advantages and disadvantages of anything I've invested in - its part of continual due diligence. I have seen a number of not particularly subtle posts about the Navra stuff that, being honest, make me question the underlying motivation of those comments. Hence a genuine, and I do mean genuine, interest in what influences your decisions in this regard.

Absolutely as pointed out and reinforced by people in this thread, CAVEAT EMPTOR for ALL investment decisions. Perhaps everything from property, to Navra, to Freeman Fox, to Ostriches, should appear under one umbrella Caveat Emptor heading ? Once that's accepted as a given, maybe people could openly and honestly discuss opposing (or not) views without causing a s***fight. I can only read and respond / question about what I gather the discussion is trying to achieve.

I certainly don't feel I am blindly following anyone's methods, including Mr Navra's, but GreatPig's comments about investment are spot on.

Before I am further relegated to the vocal minority, stumbling stupid disciple, trolled for irrelevant posts, or otherwise declared a witch because I weigh the same as a duck, I would just like to reiterate I genuinely value your thoughts.

Cheers
Carl