Trusts & Bad Structuring

Many years ago, we purchased some cf+ properties via a Family Trust. All was going really well until we purchased 4 very negative geared properties through the same Trust. At the time, we knew this would be a drain on the cashflow, but we didn't anticipate by how much. Being in a Family Trust, of course means we can't negative gear against our income, & the losses stay quarantined in the Trust. We had a large buffer in place, so were unconcerned.

Of course, life happens, & times change. We went through a rather tough patch referred to in this post http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23497 & came out the other end a little shaken. We were able to hold onto everything, but most of our reserves were in the process dried up. Then this year our expenses for sport became much more than we had budgeted for, with 2 international competitions (4 family members competing at one & 3 at the other). To help finance this we sold one of the Trust properties (it was a dog) so was able to use the proceeds to go towards the rest of the expenses. In the meantime our expenses have increased from what they were several years ago as all the expenses from the Trust properties have been capitalised. I really don't want this drain on cashflow to continue.

So, I am sitting here, trying to figure out the best way to approach our dilema.

We could sell them to ourselves. This would incur Stamp Duty & CGT. The benefit of doing this is that we could neg gear against our income. The worst part of our current structure is the Land Tax. The Stamp Duty would come to around $25k. Currently our Land Tax comes to about half this amount & it would be soooo much easier to bear if it was to come from pre-tax $$. Of course if we were to put 2 in my name & 2 in Hubby's name, then this would lessen the Land Tax further.

We could just sell them. I don't want to do this though.

The only other option I can think of is to find something else to invest in that would balance it a little. Not sure on this one & not really any funds to do this with.

Of course we will seek advice, but was wondering what the Somersoft consensus on the matter would be.

Feel free to post any suggestions that may be of benefit.
 
Is there any equity at all to draw on? I recently turned a lot of my equity into cashflow by investing in the sharemarket. Capital has taken a bit of a hit, but the income still keeps coming in which is what I need to pay the bills to fund my equity growth from my properties.
 
Mel, there is one property that I could probably get a little equity from. However the problem with this is that:

1) There is not really that much equity to bring in much cashflow

2) I really don't want to have shares in the same Trust as properties

3) Have never invested in shares, so really don't know what to do with them.
 
I'm getting around 24% (conservative) annual return on my $$. Even better, my parents gave me some money to get me out of a jam a while ago. Instead of doing that I've invested their money as well and am earning them 24% pa on it. Any more than that that I make I get to keep - and income wise I'm doing that. Capital wise, as I said, not so much. But that would only become an issue if the bank (or my folks) called in their loans. Not going to happen as the equity is still there (for the banks) and my parents wouldn't do that.

Best part is, i can get the income on a monthly basis. I use a really great broker, and have attended a few seminars, read a few books etc. I've found that the learning is mainly in the doing though.

As for having prop and shares separate, you could always have separate trusts.
 
You might want to consider using a Hybrid Trust. This may meet the original reasons for using a family trust, and in many cases it offers the ability to negatively gear as well.
 
You might want to consider using a Hybrid Trust. This may meet the original reasons for using a family trust, and in many cases it offers the ability to negatively gear as well.

Yeah, but it is a little too late now. To do that would involve probably re-settling the Trust & then there is Stamps & CGT.

You know what they say. "A little knowledge is dangerous". You learn as you go & hopefully don't make the same mistakes twice. That doesn't stop you from making some really bad ones though.:eek:
 
Just an idea.

Any way of redrafting the trust deed so that it becomes a hybrid trust or unit trust? There should be a provision in the deed that allows variation of trust deed.
 
You might also like to ask your accountant about the possibility of transferring the property to yourselves without the taxes. If the property gets transferred to the same beneficial owners then you may be able to avoid taxes, well so my financial advisor tells me.

Apparently it is set up so that people can transfer properties into superannuation trusts. I'm looking at doing a similar things in a few years with my PPOR, when we upgrade. We are looking at selling the ppor to the trust to release so that the debt would be deductible. We were prepared to wear the stamp duty and capital gains, but our financial advisors told us that we may not need to pay them.

Might be worthwhile checking out.
 
You might also like to ask your accountant about the possibility of transferring the property to yourselves without the taxes. If the property gets transferred to the same beneficial owners then you may be able to avoid taxes, well so my financial advisor tells me.

Apparently it is set up so that people can transfer properties into superannuation trusts. I'm looking at doing a similar things in a few years with my PPOR, when we upgrade. We are looking at selling the ppor to the trust to release so that the debt would be deductible. We were prepared to wear the stamp duty and capital gains, but our financial advisors told us that we may not need to pay them.

Might be worthwhile checking out.


CGT wouldnt have to be paid as its a PPOR.....

However stamp duty id imagine would be paid. Maybe different in other states from NSW..

You could use a mirror trust, to get the negative properties out and make the family trust +ive again. This way you could strem the income in a bit more tax affective way. Julia wrote an article in last months API about it
 
Shame I don't get API anymore. Got sick of there being nothing worth reading. I don't suppose anyone has a link to it?
 
Julia's website is bantacs.com.au plus she posts on here. I've contacted her twice now, with different questions and she's been way more than helfpul!
 
ummm 24% is not going to be a 'conservative' long term return in the share market

i'd be very careful about taking the sharemarket route as a solution to cash flow problems!

I didn't say that my 24 % was a conservative route for short or long term. What I DID say was that my 24% is a conservative return for me at the moment - my point being I'm getting more than 24%.

Have you actually got some options for skater other than saying that shares won't do it?
 
Mel, there is one property that I could probably get a little equity from. However the problem with this is that:

1) There is not really that much equity to bring in much cashflow

2) I really don't want to have shares in the same Trust as properties

3) Have never invested in shares, so really don't know what to do with them.
Maybe you could invest what equity you have into an Income Fund using a separate family trust. Then the positive income from the second trust is distributed to the IP family trust to offset the negative cashflow.
 
I didn't say that my 24 % was a conservative route for short or long term. What I DID say was that my 24% is a conservative return for me at the moment - my point being I'm getting more than 24%.

Have you actually got some options for skater other than saying that shares won't do it?

I was trying to point out that your option is particularly risky, particularly when in a borderline situation.

I did misinterpret your use of 'conservative' meaning that your past return is actually higher. I thought you meant that you conservatively (or even remotely) think that you will continue to receive that type of return.

I dont know enough about moving assets in and out of trusts to offer an effective option on doing this, although I was under the impression that you will get bitten by stamp duty. If i were in that position i would be creating a decent cash flow spreadsheet, and then run the various options (probably mainly between selling to yourself or selling outright) through it before making a decision. Whilst i'd consider the stock market option, if i was that close to the margin, with little equity, i'd discount that option pretty quickly.
 
I dont know enough about moving assets in and out of trusts to offer an effective option on doing this, although I was under the impression that you will get bitten by stamp duty.

Have you spoken to your accountant about trust cloning? CGT free on transfer and their could be stamp duty and land tax savings depending on your state. Speak to your accountant and/or lawyer.
 
Have you spoken to your accountant about trust cloning? CGT free on transfer and their could be stamp duty and land tax savings depending on your state. Speak to your accountant and/or lawyer.

Hi Mry

Yes I have spoken to my accountant & he seems to think that I am stuck with what I have. I will note, however, that he is an old family friend & I know that his knowledge is not as good as some of the forum accountants. This is why I need to seek further advice & thought I would start here & see if the combined Somersoft knowledge would get me started on things to look into.

How can there be Stamp Duty savings? I was under the impression that as soon as you transfer anything you are up for CGT & Stamp Duty. The land tax is a pain also as, being a Family Trust, it is classified as a special Trust & SD is payable from the first $$. I know we can reduce this slightly if in our own names by having 2 in my name & 2 in Hubby's. The properties involved are all in NSW.
 
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