Using a buy & hold strategy, in how many years did you reach financial independence?

Using a buy & hold strategy, in how many years did you reach financial independence?


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Hi Rixter,

Thanks for clarifying the reason for you deciding to LOE. I also asked whether you'd worked out whether it would be feasible for you to divest your properties and invest the proceeds in shares/index funds and live off dividends.[

The shock market is too volatile an asset class and too out of my control for my liking, therefore does not fit my personal risk profile. I prefer the safety of bricks and mortar where I can control what?s happening on a day to day level within my portfolio. If I want to make changes I simply look in the mirror and the board of directors has just met, as opposed to voicing my opinion at a company AGM.

LOR is DOA.....not feasible over the longer term..though a hybrid with ..some LOR could work. The regulatory environment will make this harder and harder.
The govt seems to be protecting all the newbies from themselves....
I think he meant LOE.
Ah, ok then. Completely different. In that case, I agree.

My concern with LOE is tighter lending requirements going forward. Does this concern you with your LOE set up??

Buy & Hold for financial independence is not a short term investment, rather a long term one and needs to be structured accordingly.

Nothing is risk free, no matter what the investment. One should always work towards maximising cash flows and minimising risks whenever possible.

As such, one method to minimise exposure risk in relation harvesting of capital growth for the purpose of LOE is to structure one?s portfolio so as to provide more than sufficient funds to maintain their chosen level of lifestyle for a period 10 years or over and have those funds already approved, secured and available for ready access.

For example, with a $4 Million 65% LVR portfolio, structured for CG and cash flow neutral/+ , with a chosen lifestyle budget of $1000 income tax free per week (equiv to $1280 Gross payg) the calculation would look like this ?

$1000 x 52 weeks = $52k.
$52k x 10 years = 520k.
Interest on Interest component for $52k per year over the decade @ say 6.5% avg = $90k
Secured equity required for LOE across the decade = $610k (520k + 90k).

Portfolio Position starting LOE.
Value $4,000,000 less $2,610,000 ($2,000,000 (50%LVR) + $610,000 credit limit secured for progressive draw down of $52k per year over the following 10 years ( 15% LVR )) = TOTAL $1,390,000 equity (65% LVR )

Portfolio Position after 10 Years of LOE.
Value $8,000,000 less $2,610,000 (debt) = TOTAL $5,390,000 equity (17% LVR)

So let's now look at an example on the cash flow component and use a very conservative 5% rental yield on the $4,000,000 asset base, with a 6.5% bank interest rate, starting the LOE harvesting phase.

$4,000.000 x 5% = $200,000 rental income.
$2,000,000 (debt) x 6.5% = $130,000 +( $3,300 p/a interest on the $52k LOE per year)compounding for 10 years.

At the completion of 10 years Portfolio Value = $8,000,000 with debt TOTAL of $2,610,000 x 6.5% bank interest = $169,650.
$8,000,000 x 5% conservative rental yield = $400,000.
$400,000 minus $169,650 = $230,350 cash flow positive.

Property investing / Portfolio building is not about property - it's about finance! Property is merely what banks take hold over as security for loaning you the finance in the first instance. As such, financially structuring oneself correctly so as to place yourself a position of being able to continually access funds whenever you need/want is vital - whether it be for investment/business and/or lifestyle.

You need to have the foresight to plan ahead years in advance. You don?t want to paint yourself into the proverbial DSR corner with no options left to go - it's too late then.

However, let's play devils advocate and after 10 years say you don't meet bank DSR requirements for LOC credit limit top ups for the next 10 year round - you can always sell down a portion to pay out the $2,610,000 debt and see out your remaining days LOR with a $5,390,000 mortgage free property portfolio (less selling costs).

One of the LOE advantages people don't realise is once you're financially structured correctly you only need sufficient cash flow to cover the interest component on your lifestyle & portfolio holding expenses, and not the actual lifestyle & portfolio expenses themselves.

As such it allows the option, should one elect to, exit the rat with financial independence years earlier in comparison to waiting for sufficient positive cash flow from rental income.

It's a totally different paradigm than most of society is accustomed to. The poor/middle class are raised within a cash for income paradigm, where as the wealthy are raised within a capital for income paradigm.
 
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With all due respect, I hope it works out for you Rick, I really do, but I still see what you are doing as extremely risky.

How would you raise capital, should you need/want a substantial sum? Banks aren't going to be in a rush to lend to someone with no 'real' (based on banks serviceability) income coming in.

I don't like living on struggle street, so would be very nervous to be in your position.

What would you do if the CG isn't forthcoming in 10 years time? I know you've said that you could sell one, but would the income from the others then be enough to live on?

Personally, we've got a goodly amount sitting in offsets, with more to come with the sale of a property or two. We have enough to live on rents, but also the security of extra monies in the offsets, if we need it. We've also got well in excess of double digit's in IP's, spread between regional VIC, regional NSW, Sydney, Brisbane & Adelaide, and are happy to sell something else if/when necessary.

I truly do wish you all the best, but I am a little nervous for you at the same time.
 
Hi Skater, the answers to the concerns you express are addressed in my last post.

But like previously mentioned we're all different including personal risk profiles.

Like you we have plenty of buffers in place. And if all else fails we do the same as you, LOR for ' actual lifestyle expenses' as opposed to our current capitalising the 'interest component' on our actual lifestyle expenses.

The advantage of going the way we've elected is it allows years earlier rat race exit.
 
The advantage of going the way we've elected is it allows years earlier rat race exit.

But does it?

I'm not sure on how aggressively you've invested, or for how long, but I presume around the same time frame as us, mainly because, like me, you are part of the furniture around here.;)

I don't consider that we've invested aggressively, but I do tend to go on buying sprees where I'll buy several at the one time.:eek: We have a mix of regional (for cashflow) and metro. But, even the metro ones were bought with cashflow in mind. We probably have a higher number of properties, but they are lower value than yours.

Over time, rents go up, LVR's go down & there's a nice healthy profit coming in, which is what most of us are after.

From your posts, I presume (buy happy to be proven wrong), that you target properties with around 5-6% yield? While I'm a cashflow kinda girl. I target properties with 7-10% yield. Some have been higher.

I'm not saying that what I've done is better, because, like you say, we are all different and have different risk profiles. I'm happy to buy the ex-housies, & you are probably targeting more expensive properties closer to the CBD.

What I am saying is that, because I target properties with a higher cashflow, that I think we've arrived at the same destination, in a similar time frame, but I won't be using the equity for living expenses.

Our portfolio is set up so that we don't need CG at all going forward. Of course, CG WILL happen, but we are dependant on rent, not CG.

It's funny really, because I think the properties that we have in our portfolio, many investors would baulk at and consider risky (ex-housing com, regional etc), yet, to me, the sheer fact that they are high yielding is my safety net, so to speak.
 
Skater....over the longer term it is unsustainable....in most instances. I have done the modelling myself...

Where you will find it working isn when people have a $7m plus portfolio with say less than 50% gearing and are drawing down less than say 1% of the portfolio. You also need to be careful that you are diversified across many areas in Australia not just one like Sydney. This is because when Sydney downturns it does for 7-8 years and this will eat into you equity if that is your sole means of income.

However if you have a $7m portfolio with 3.5m in borrowings with I/O costs of say then it maybe feasible assuming you only need say 30K from LOE and and another 40-50k from CF+ income. Beaware that once you stop work your ability to draw more equity is limited without income serviceability unless you sell which is a different strategy.

I completely disagree with this.


30 properties...retirement at 52. The properties were mostly buy and hold. I did a few renovations but too much effort..I am lazy. ;) Lately I am buying land and putting a new house. Has worked out quite well and the returns in completion are about 6.5-7%
Fantastic results Sash!! Just curious at what number are you going to slow down I.e. what is your end game?

And were your properties so far just buy renovate and hold or have you dabbled with developments?

Ari
 
Skater....over the longer term it is unsustainable....in most instances. I have done the modelling myself...

I'm not disagreeing with you Sash. If you read through what I've said, I am AGREEING with you.

To me, it all sounds good in theory, until you get to the 10 year mark & you need to draw down more equity. If you don't have the serviceability, you won't get the money.

Now....you could get a cashbond for this BUT, you've already eaten into the equity. You need to pay up front for a cashbond.

Like you, I have a decent sized portfolio. All buy & hold! Spread all across the country. All cashflow positive. Some reno's on local stuff, but not a lot of it as it's too time consuming while Hubby works the day job. That job is now redundant, but Hubby wants to push on for a bit longer.
 
From your posts, I presume (buy happy to be proven wrong), that you target properties with around 5-6% yield? While I'm a cashflow kinda girl. I target properties with 7-10% yield. Some have been higher.




Yes, I guess you could say each of our strategies are inversely proportional to each other.

Because of my chosen investment strategy, it dictates our macro purchasing criteria to be located in areas of 7-10% historic CG with a rental yield of 5-6%.

All our portfolio is held in or adjacent to satellite CBD's within mainland capital cities.

We actively started investing in 2000 bascially purchasing an IP per years over the course of the following decade. Depending upon portfolio performance, some years we purchased none and in other years we purchased two.

Today we hold a multi million dollar net portfolio spread across Australia.
 
Yep...spot on.....the cashbond I think caught a few people out.

I think Rixter might be one of the few who has made a go of LOE...would be curious to see how he is going?

The real beauty is once you have a $10m plus portfolio...you can set your life on coast and collect about 100k in net income per year...if you have an LVR of 50% or less.


I'm not disagreeing with you Sash. If you read through what I've said, I am AGREEING with you.

To me, it all sounds good in theory, until you get to the 10 year mark & you need to draw down more equity. If you don't have the serviceability, you won't get the money.

Now....you could get a cashbond for this BUT, you've already eaten into the equity. You need to pay up front for a cashbond.

Like you, I have a decent sized portfolio. All buy & hold! Spread all across the country. All cashflow positive. Some reno's on local stuff, but not a lot of it as it's too time consuming while Hubby works the day job. That job is now redundant, but Hubby wants to push on for a bit longer.
 
Hey Rixter...I am curious how you are going...are you able to say how you are doing it:

1. How much income are you getting?
2. LVR% Relevant as I want to see the split of CF+ income vs actual LOE income?
3. What sort of asset base you had to achieve this?

I think you are doing the large portfolio $5m+ with low LVR (less than 50%) approach....is this correct? If so the approach is a hybrid LOE....

If you are doing only LOE ...pat yourself on the back...you are in the top 0.5% of property strategists!

Yes, I guess you could say each of our strategies are inversely proportional to each other.

Because of my chosen investment strategy, it dictates our macro purchasing criteria to be located in areas of 7-10% historic CG with a rental yield of 5-6%.

All our portfolio is held in or adjacent to satellite CBD's within mainland capital cities.

We actively started investing in 2000 bascially purchasing an IP per years over the course of the following decade. Depending upon portfolio performance, some years we purchased none and in other years we purchased two.

Today we hold a multi million dollar net portfolio spread across Australia.
 
Now....you could get a cashbond for this BUT, you've already eaten into the equity. You need to pay up front for a cashbond.

That's exactly right.. if you've eaten into the equity you've painted yourself into a corner. You need to leave sufficient equity aside for applying the CB structure when top up time comes round.
 
Sash, pure LOE. I will pm you. p.s I tried pm you and it says you need to clear some room in your PM inbox
Hey Rixter...I am curious how you are going...are you able to say how you are doing it:

1. How much income are you getting?
2. LVR% Relevant as I want to see the split of CF+ income vs actual LOE income?
3. What sort of asset base you had to achieve this?

I think you are doing the large portfolio $5m+ with low LVR (less than 50%) approach....is this correct? If so the approach is a hybrid LOE....

If you are doing only LOE ...pat yourself on the back...you are in the top 0.5% of property strategists!
 
Yes, I guess you could say each of our strategies are inversely proportional to each other.

Because of my chosen investment strategy, it dictates our macro purchasing criteria to be located in areas of 7-10% historic CG with a rental yield of 5-6%.

All our portfolio is held in or adjacent to satellite CBD's within mainland capital cities.

We actively started investing in 2000 bascially purchasing an IP per years over the course of the following decade. Depending upon portfolio performance, some years we purchased none and in other years we purchased two.

Today we hold a multi million dollar net portfolio spread across Australia.

Our first one was in 1998, but we didn't buy again until 2003, and had a few setbacks along the way. Being on a low income at the time, we had no option other than to look for high yielding properties. It worked, so continued along this path, long after getting a much higher income.

We are currently holding 9 Sydney properties with a heap of other ones spread across the country. Again, a multi million dollar portfolio.
 
30 properties...retirement at 52. The properties were mostly buy and hold. I did a few renovations but too much effort..I am lazy. ;) Lately I am buying land and putting a new house. Has worked out quite well and the returns in completion are about 6.5-7%

Hi Sash - how long ago did you start investing?
 
Our first one was in 1998, but we didn't buy again until 2003, and had a few setbacks along the way. Being on a low income at the time, we had no option other than to look for high yielding properties. It worked, so continued along this path, long after getting a much higher income.

We are currently holding 9 Sydney properties with a heap of other ones spread across the country. Again, a multi million dollar portfolio.

9 sydney properties :eek: you'd be going to bed with a big smile on your face every night! will you hold all of these places till the next cycle?
 
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