Verbal Agreement?

[liverpoolharryk]

That's what I thought Jacque, but we went to court for this exact matter a few months ago. Here's how it went.........Judge said that becuase we sent him out a lease renewal we had therefore offered a new lease and regardless of whether it was signed we had to honor the lease agreement. He even gave the cheeky bugger a further 7 days to remedy the rent arrears that he was 3 weeks behind. He remied that so we had to wait till he was behind in his rent AGAIN to evict him and another court case.....they don't make it easy!

Bradcon.....that's the outcome now. If they don't sign the new lease they must move out a we send a notice to leave as well.

 

[Jacque]

That's what I thought Jacque, but we went to court for this exact matter a few months ago. Here's how it went.........Judge said that because we sent him out a lease renewal we had therefore offered a new lease and regardless of whether it was signed we had to honor the lease agreement.

That's ridiculous. I am so tired of tribunals finding in tenants favour- the last time one of my tenants wrote a letter of hardship I accompanied it with one of my own and was successful, but geez it's all so time consuming....

 

[bradcon]

That's what I thought Jacque, but we went to court for this exact matter a few months ago. Here's how it went.........Judge said that becuase we sent him out a lease renewal we had therefore offered a new lease and regardless of whether it was signed we had to honor the lease agreement. He even gave the cheeky bugger a further 7 days to remedy the rent arrears that he was 3 weeks behind. He remied that so we had to wait till he was behind in his rent AGAIN to evict him and another court case.....they don't make it easy!

Bradcon.....that's the outcome now. If they don't sign the new lease they must move out a we send a notice to leave as well.

I have nothing against that. It makes sense to me. I feel that the landlord HAS to have a better understanding of all the laws regarding tenancies because its their property. To avoid boring yourself of every last law you hirs a specialist (see: Property Manager) to be that expert. In our case we did the research, knew that we could stay past the end of the lease and did so. No phone calls, no follow up. Nothing. We probably would have signed a new lease or at least attempted to negotiate a shorter term lease if possible but the agent dropped the ball. I dont think in our case you can blame the tenant for actually knowing the rules. The agent, if she had done her job well would have been all over it. I would be pissed off too if i hired someone to look after my property and they were 'asleep at the wheel'.

I would have been livid if the case had gone the other way, as you describe in your example liverpoolharryk. The best advise i got on here is the 'well if verbal agreements count say that you had a verbal agreement for a million dollars to be paid out to you. See if that holds up! I might start sending random letters to nice houses saying i own your house now, then challenge it in court when they dont vacate for me and my hire truck of goodies!!!

I wonder if the laws are so heavily stacked in favour of the tenant because of the old adage 'Possession is 9/10th of the law'?

 

[Perp]

That's what I thought Jacque, but we went to court for this exact matter a few months ago. Here's how it went.........Judge said that becuase we sent him out a lease renewal we had therefore offered a new lease and regardless of whether it was signed we had to honor the lease agreement.

I imagine the problem was that you didn't issue a notice to leave simultaneously with the offer of a new fixed term agreement. By not doing so, the tenant was entitled to assume that they had the option of a new fixed term or going on month-to-month. But then when they chose month-to-month, they received a NTL! IMHO, the Tribunal was right to say that they have to be given the right to choose again.

Who stuffed up and didn't issue the NIL the first time around? I assume not Raine and Horne Salisbury property management?

 

[Peterw]

Interesting, under the Property Law Act, which in my opinion would also cover Residential Tenancies, only agreements in writing are enforceable. Had the been pointed out to the Tribunal, they may have taken a different view.

 

[vesollee]

Refund of bond

I have been having a problem where Ray White Grange were taking water payments from my rent payments. They also allow the landlord to do what she wanted when she wanted.
The landlord extended the lease for a further 1 yr and also told me I was 2 weeks behind in my rent. She wanted a further 2 weeks rent in advance.

I knew my rent was paid up while she was there I was told insulation was being installed at 6:30 am the next day.I told her I had not received anything from the agent and this needed to be done. She said the agents would do what they were told to do.

The next morning I rang the agent they confirmed they knew the landlord extended the lease and the rent was paid. I asked them to write the landlord a letter to confirm this.

A week later the landlord came back and reniged on the lease saying she was moving in straight away. I did not have to worry about any rent should I go early. I asked her to put this into writing and again the agent would do as they were told.
I took this advice and moved early.The landlord moved in 2 days later.

There was a hearing I was unable to attend. I was very ill. They agent put forward I was behind in my rent. Bond was given to the landlord.I put in to have The Order Varied and set aside this was granted the case was heard.The landlord did not come and of course the agents just lied.The member had the landlord attend.

We were in the tribunal. Friday Nov 12 the landlord denied all of this she said, she moved in 7 weeks later. Any evidence I put forward it was disputed by landlord and the agents who were total b...'s

The member told the landlord she had a duty to mitgate her losses, and why did she move in 7 weeks later if she had a mortage? She said she was depending on the bond to pay her.

I am now waiting for the Order of the bond. Wish me well, Hope I do not have to wait for my money.
By the way the member told the agent off for taking water payments from the rent payment

 

[bradcon]

Interesting, under the Property Law Act, which in my opinion would also cover Residential Tenancies, only agreements in writing are enforceable. Had the been pointed out to the Tribunal, they may have taken a different view.

Obviously!!! Its amazing as i have had to go to the ribunal 2 times now as the landlord still refuses to pay. Interestingly enough the tribunal cannot force the agent to pay it out of the rent collected from the current tenant but i understand that one somewhat. The landlord has not attended any of the tribunal hearings which again i think is interesting. Surely if you had a vested interest you would attend with the agent. I know i would. Now the landlord has had to pay the Agent to attend the tribunal a couple of times, plus had the cost of the hearing awarded against him. Its over in my opinion, how can you keep agruing a point that is wrong.

Slightly off topic but i had to take the uncomfortable ride in the lift to the court room with the Agent. Here is a list of things you would love to NOT hear YOUR agent say:

"After 10 years i have had enough of this"

"I know this judge, she is a b**ch" (if you know what judges are tough ect clearly you are attending the tribunal too often)

"The Landlord is making me be here" in resopnce to a questoin by the judge as to why is is still bothering with this.

"I was going to take today off, just tell (the principal of the agency) to deal with this"

Probably not someone you want defending you, or looking after your property.

 

[wobbycarly]

Obviously!!! Its amazing as i have had to go to the ribunal 2 times now as teh landlord still refuses to pay. Interestingly enough the tribunal cannot force the agent to pay it out of the rent collected from the current tenant but i understand that one somewhat. The landlord has not attended any of the tribunal hearings which again i think is interesting. Surely if you had a vested interest you would attend with the agent. I know i would. Now the landlord has had to pay the Agent to attend the tribunal a couple of times, plus had the cost of the hearing awarded against him. Its over in my opinion, how can you keep agruing a point that is wrong.

Not sure if was mentioned and I missed it, but I wouldn't put much on this. Firstly, as a landlord, this is one of the things I pay my PM for. Secondly, I certainly wouldn't be traveling to a hearing in Qld (IP in Qld) from Geelong (where I live) if I was in the position of this landlord.

Probably not someone you want defending you, or looking after your property.

Agreed!

 

[bradcon]

Not sure if was mentioned and I missed it, but I wouldn't put much on this. Firstly, as a landlord, this is one of the things I pay my PM for. Secondly, I certainly wouldn't be traveling to a hearing in Qld (IP in Qld) from Geelong (where I live) if I was in the position of this landlord.

Yeah i agree with you mostly BUT i would think that if after all this you STILL believed you were right you might (if possible of course, and in this case in terms of travel it is definately possible) put in an appearance.

 

[bradcon]

So i thought i would update this situation.

Now its 2 trips down to VCAT, 2 victories and still no money.

VCAT urge that you try to make contact to ensure that 'all possible outcomes have been attempted' before lodging with the courts to have the order enforced, property seized ect ect so the only way we have of contacting the LL is thru the agent.

I tried the sturnly worded email to the agent and the GM of the agency basically giving them 48 hours to get the issue resolved or we would lodge in court. Given that the money is due in August i think we have been patient enough. The GM called within hours of getting the email but instead of telling me that they were doing something he simply stated that there is nothing they can do. 'Out of our hands' i believe were his words. He then asked did i want the email forwarded to the LL. 'Well your the only way i can contact the agent so what do you think buddy?' Isnt it the job of the PM to do everything in their power to 'protect' the LL?

Now i understand that the agents cannot force payment or anything like that but really at this point the LL is looking at paying up PLUS cost PLUS any other costs that might come from repossession PLUS a black mark against his Credit Rating. As far as i know he is not taking this any further so what benefit does not paying up have at this point?

I feel that that the agent has been very poor on this matter (especially from the POV of the LL IMO). Why would you pay someone to look after your interests when clearly they couldn't give a stuff.

 

[Perp]

I think you are being far too patient. Why have you not lodged at Magistrates' Court to have your order enforced? It's neither expensive nor painful - for you, anyway. For the landlord, it will be painful - and should be.

 

[bradcon]

I think you are being far too patient. Why have you not lodged at Magistrates' Court to have your order enforced? It's neither expensive nor painful - for you, anyway. For the landlord, it will be painful - and should be.

Its actually harder than you think. I dont have the LL's address so i cant expect much as i have had to use the LL's IP as the address. Which means that they (the new tenants) might get a visit from the Sherrifs office!!!

 

[rupert]

Its actually harder than you think. I dont have the LL's address so i cant expect much as i have had to use the LL's IP as the address. Which means that they (the new tenants) might get a visit from the Sherrifs office!!!

I loathe to hear stories like this.

From the Landlord's point of view, it would appear the Agent has been negligent in their management of the property. Pure and simple. Any losses, expenses, costs or otherwise should be borne by the Agent to the Landlord. This has nothing to do with the Tenant and the Tenant should not bear the burden of liability between the Agent and the Landlord.

From the Tenant's point of view, this is a total complete utter waste of your time. Quite aside from the issue concerning the expiration of the Lease, the VCAT has determined that you are entitled to your Bond. That determination can be converted into a judgment order in your local Magistrates Court.

If you still have your original tenancy agreement, the Landlord's address should be nominated on the document. Otherwise, for all intents and purposes, service is through the Agency. If the Agency again neglects to pass on the service to the Landlord then that is their problem.

I wouldn't put too much reliance on what you may have heard of the Landlord's response to your claim - especially if such words came through the mouth of the negligent Agent. It might be that the Landlord is aware of the Order but have refused to pay on the basis that the Agent stuffed up - that is, the Agent being responsible.

How much are we talking about in total? You should remind yourself that you're entitled to interest on Orders. You should seek to convert the determination into an Order as soon as possible. Further, you might be entitled to interest from the date of determination to the date of the Order.

In the most extreme case, there are ways of "punishing" those who do not wish to come to the table with clean hands. If the Landlord continues to feign ignorance or the Agent continues to play the "not my decision" game, the consequences can be harsh and far reaching. However, it really comes down to how much time and effort you want to put into this.

-Rupert.

 

[bradcon]

Thanks for the advice. I agree that the agent has been grossly negligent here. Maybe the LL is also to blame but seeing as the agent is the only person i can actually access at this point then they are copping my wrath.

We are looking at just under $700 at the moment. Not a hell of a lot but enough for a fight in my opinion.

 

[Lynds]

bradcon - who is the agent? PM me if uncomfortable posting. I am just wondering as I am having issues with y agent - maybe across the board for this group?

 

[bradcon]

Wow what a mess this has become.

Whenever i speak to the Agent they tell me 'None of our business, deal with teh landlord', whenever i speak to the Landlord he tells me ' None of my business, speak with the agent'. Pity the agent is right.

I have tried to be nice and given plenty of opportunity to have the LL pay but he continus to refuse. But thanks to our good friend the Electoral Roll i was able to find out where he lives and tried to personally serve him a summons to court. Suprise suprise he refused to take it.

Everything i tell him in reagrds to getting a bad credit rating and havig to pay all costs and interest associted with the case just fall son deaf ears.

Any suggestions?

 

[Perp]

Everything i tell him in reagrds to getting a bad credit rating and havig to pay all costs and interest associted with the case just fall son deaf ears.

Any suggestions?

Yes, you have tried every possible avenue of resolving this outside court. Apply for an enforcement order; the Court will then serve him, and perhaps he'll realise it's serious then!

 

[kathryn d]

Wow what a mess this has become.

.

I have tried to be nice and given plenty of opportunity to have the LL pay but he continus to refuse. But thanks to our good friend the Electoral Roll i was able to find out where he lives and tried to personally serve him a summons to court. Suprise suprise he refused to take it.


Any suggestions?

Were you actually near the LL in person?
In Canada if we serve someone and they refuse to take it, we are permittted to drop it at their feet, and it is considered to be served.
Otherwise we can also ask for "substituted servide". They (RTA Director, Small Claims Judge etc) inform us who we may serve in that person's absence. Which could something as simple as serving the PM's office.

 

[bradcon]

Were you actually near the LL in person?
In Canada if we serve someone and they refuse to take it, we are permittted to drop it at their feet, and it is considered to be served.
Otherwise we can also ask for "substituted servide". They (RTA Director, Small Claims Judge etc) inform us who we may serve in that person's absence. Which could something as simple as serving the PM's office.

Yeah i found his house!!! I was unsure as to whether i could do that (drop at their feet). I really didnt want to do that in case it was the wrong thing to do. HOWEVER you are correct i could have done that. I might however take the legal path just to cover myself. I could also have a witness and get them to sign an affidavit to confirm it was done. He threatened to call the police if i didnt leave his property. The police told me if he had they would have asked why i was there and he could either tell the truth in which case he would have had to take it or lied, have a van come around and when they arrived they would have served him regardless. I cant sever the PM's office because they are no longer involved.

This is such a frustrating experience to go thru. Thanks for your advice.

 

[bradcon]

Yes, you have tried every possible avenue of resolving this outside court. Apply for an enforcement order; the Court will then serve him, and perhaps he'll realise it's serious then!

Ill give you the steps i have taken

- Got a certified VCAT order
- Registered it with the Magistrates Court
- Chosen to Summons the LL to find out his financial affairs
(i could have got the sherrrifs office but the advice i got was that i cant guarentee that he has items of value to auction off and i cant garnish his pay without knowing where he works)
- Tried to serve him with the summons

Because its a civil matter the police wont really help unless i tresspass and he calls the police. I have also been told trying to prove tresspass is bloody hard!!!

What am i missing here?