What Effects Will The U.S Market Downturn Have On Australia?

In SIMPLE terms: how will 'Aussies' be affected by current U.S Market conditions? and if it gets much worse? What will you all be doing when it comes to Investment Properties?

Any Feedback Welcome!


Cheers

James
 
If I knew the answer I'd be planning how to take advantage of it.

At the moment the cork bobbing in the water metaphor describes it well.
I just dont know if I'm behind the breakwater or out to sea.

With a bit of luck we wont be greatly affected, interest rates will drop about 2-3% and I can lock in some low fixed rates which make my properties much more affordable.

But seeing the picture changes every day I've got no idea what tomorrow will bring.

The shares show on the Fox business channel will be interesting tonight.
 
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Heard Peter Schiff on the ABC radio the other day. He has been predicting the USA's current turmoil for years. He rekons Aus is well placed to be largely unaffected because of our resource rich country and nations like China and India increasingly hungry for our resources. He did put a big AS LONG AS in there. As long as we let USA sink and don't try to become rescuer. As if ??? Allies till the end! With a Swan and a Rudd (er ) on hand surely we cannot sink. :rolleyes:
 
When I hear the China will insulate us argument, I have 4 questions that concern me.

1./ Isn't China and India's massive expansion built upon the rise of their manufacturing base?

2./ Who is buying those manufactured goods?

3./ Will the purchasers be able to continue to purchase those goods if freely available credit is taken away and wealth is reduced?

4./ If those people reduce the buying of Chinese and Indian goods, will their need for massive inputs of resources also be reduced?

Another general niggling thought I have had for some time regarding the resources will protect us argument is, aren't resources also a large part of the US economy? They have a big chunk of the planet there, so I'm assuming they also have lots of the dig it up/ship it out stuff, but they are still in trouble.

Being just a "Joe Six Pack" (that's my favourite term of the week :) ) I have a fairly limited grasp of global trade mechanics, so any expansion of the resources as a buffer theory, based on these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Beef.
 
When I hear the China will insulate us argument, I have 4 questions that concern me.

1./ Isn't China and India's massive expansion built upon the rise of their manufacturing base?

2./ Who is buying those manufactured goods?

3./ Will the purchasers be able to continue to purchase those goods if freely available credit is taken away and wealth is reduced?

4./ If those people reduce the buying of Chinese and Indian goods, will their need for massive inputs of resources also be reduced?

Another general niggling thought I have had for some time regarding the resources will protect us argument is, aren't resources also a large part of the US economy? They have a big chunk of the planet there, so I'm assuming they also have lots of the dig it up/ship it out stuff, but they are still in trouble.

Being just a "Joe Six Pack" (that's my favourite term of the week :) ) I have a fairly limited grasp of global trade mechanics, so any expansion of the resources as a buffer theory, based on these questions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Beef.
You've got a very good point here, also seems resources are going down as quickly as they have gone up in the first half of the year.
I believe homes in australia are worth at present around 3.4 tril$. Do you think after all this crunch-burning money etc. there will be enough money to keep the home value at 3.4 tril$?
 
In SIMPLE terms: how will 'Aussies' be affected by current U.S Market conditions? and if it gets much worse? What will you all be doing when it comes to Investment Properties?

Any Feedback Welcome!


Cheers

James

Think about how property prices have been driven up and sustained at a price that is due to Australians borrowing 31% of their mortgage from overseas banks.

Those foreign banks are not as keen to lend now, and into the foreseeable future. This will drive up the return they want on any funds that do get through to Australia, and they will want to minimize the risk that money is exposed to.
Therefore, Australia can expect credit to be expensive and tighter.

Banks and people that have to refinance debt will pay higher rates. Many won't be able to afford it. This will put more property on the market and drive prices downwards.....how far I don't know.

As the US economy softens, their consumption of Asian production will slow. This will slow Chinese growth and need for Australian commodities. How much is debatable. This will slow Australian economy.

Slow economy, tighter credit = property prices coming down.

BTW, then throw on top higher demand for oil from the developing nations, and you have even more mortgage stress.
 
Well, Coal doesn't really have big impact on energy commodities, coal prices is not even listed on bloomberg even the article is pointing how the deal is much lower then 1 or 2 months ago, if you consider that the yen a year ago was at 115 yen for US$ and now is at 104 yen for US$ I think it is a very good deal for the Japanese.
By the way this is the main coal producer in UK, the share prices is not doing that great in the last 3 months. But I guess the falling AU$ will help australian resources company to keep good profits.
 
Think about how property prices have been driven up and sustained at a price that is due to Australians borrowing 31% of their mortgage from overseas banks.

Those foreign banks are not as keen to lend now, and into the foreseeable future. This will drive up the return they want on any funds that do get through to Australia, and they will want to minimize the risk that money is exposed to.
Therefore, Australia can expect credit to be expensive and tighter.

Banks and people that have to refinance debt will pay higher rates. Many won't be able to afford it. This will put more property on the market and drive prices downwards.....how far I don't know.

As the US economy softens, their consumption of Asian production will slow. This will slow Chinese growth and need for Australian commodities. How much is debatable. This will slow Australian economy.

Slow economy, tighter credit = property prices coming down.

BTW, then throw on top higher demand for oil from the developing nations, and you have even more mortgage stress.


Thanks WinstonWolfe........ I have much more of an understanding!

Greatly Appreciated

James
 
Think about how property prices have been driven up and sustained at a price that is due to Australians borrowing 31% of their mortgage from overseas banks.

Those foreign banks are not as keen to lend now, and into the foreseeable future.

My thoughts in regard to above are that Australians are paying a higher interest rate then Americans for their house loans now.

RBA rate is about 7% and FED rate about 2.5% ( excuse inaccuracy as I haven't time to check as dashing off to watch Packed to the Rafters on TV).

Would not a foreign bank want to get a higher IR return by lending to Australians rather than a lower IR return lending to Amercians?
 
My thoughts in regard to above are that Australians are paying a higher interest rate then Americans for their house loans now.

RBA rate is about 7% and FED rate about 2.5% ( excuse inaccuracy as I haven't time to check as dashing off to watch Packed to the Rafters on TV).

Would not a foreign bank want to get a higher IR return by lending to Australians rather than a lower IR return lending to Amercians?

The 7% is on AUD and the 2.5% is on USD. So not really like for like - they are interest rates on different currencies.

People / hedge funds etc try to arbitrage the interest rate differentials all the time. The reason why it is hard to get ahead doing this is normally the FX rate will move against you and wipe out any gains you made on the interest rate difference. There have been a few threads on this for people here who want to borrow in YEN etc which is the same thing but the flip side of what you are suggesting.

If you lock in the FX rate (a forward contract) so you have no FX risk at all you will find the cost to do so (and the forward rate) will almost exactly wipes out the interest rate differential (it's called covered interest arbitrage).
 
Seeing as I have to repost this every month or so.

There are some common misconceptions about China:

1. China is dependent on US demand for their goods.

Well no, not really. China exports to a hell of a lot of places that have limited or no economic relationship with the USA. China sells the same stuff it sells in the US to Europe. China is a major exporter of cars to Africa and the Middle East (particularly Egypt) (I bet you didnt know that China was a big car exporter...). China happily trades with places the West will not trade with - they have a roaring trade with Myanmar. It would not surprise me if there was also significant trade with North Korea (despite what you read in the press - keep in mind that Ethiopia was a net food exporter during the starvations of the 1980s...). None of these places are particularly tied to the US economic system. Furthermore Chinese domestic demand is huge. The number of new refrigerators needed to fuel the demands of China's burgeoning middle class is insane. Do you know how many ****ing bicycles there are in China? They want to replace every bicycle with a car.

2. China will slow down after the Olympics.

No. The Olympics are very important for "face" and for selling Brand China. But in economic terms they dont even make a ripple. Australia is a MUCH smaller country than China (we have a smaller population than Shanghai alone...) but post 2000 Australia did not go into a post Olympic slump.

3. Chinese demand for commodities will ease in the next few years.

No. The "rebuilding" of China after 40 years of Communist Rule is a once in a lifetime event that will drive economic growth around the globe. Look at history and the prosperity that followed in the 50s and 60s in the rebuilding of Germany after WWII. While this is not exactly the same - in the words of Mark Twain - history doesnt repeat but it sure rhymes.
 
There are 2 impacts:

1) Direct impact of tougher credit. Our banks borrow abroad as we don't save enough. They will struggle to get the cash at good interest rates.

2) Indirect impact of China slowdown. I don't believe China and the US are decoupled. Only a relatively small percentage of their GDP is exports but a larger percentage of their GDP is infrastructure geared to facilitate exports. So I think they will slow a bit but still grow (3 or 4% off the top of GDP growth). This will take the pressure off and you only need to take a little pressure off to impact commodity prices a lot.

As Australia has abandoned all other internationally traded sectors of it's economy except mining (and agriculture) I think it will be hit hard when commodity prices come off.
 
i just called my agent to take off $80,000 off of our selling price as i hope to get my cash out of my home, down size having an lvr 20% and use the other when the opportunity arrises,
 
In SIMPLE terms: how will 'Aussies' be affected by current U.S Market conditions? and if it gets much worse? What will you all be doing when it comes to Investment Properties?

Any Feedback Welcome!


Cheers

James

Ok here is my answer.

1. It will make **** all difference to the Aussie butcher who lives on the Sunshine Coast who has his house paid off and likes to take his dog for a walk on the beach.

2. It will make **** all difference to the young accounting graduate just out of Sydney Uni who is starting her first real job with PWC and moving into the assurance department and living in a share house (away from mum and dad for the first time).

3. It will make **** all difference to a single mum on Centrelink living in a rented house raising 2 kids in Werribee.

4. It will make a couple investors on Somersoft a bit twitchy for awhile and the ones on variable rate mortages could see their cost of funds stay the same despite the fact that the RBA is dropping rates.

5. It wont get much worse because it hasnt really gotten bad. Its all happening "over there" and even if you were "over there" if you are reading this forum you probably arent the kind of person that does US style subprime anyway.

6. What will I be doing when it comes to IPs in Australia? Absolutely nothing. I have a full load of IPs at the moment and Im waiting for a lack of investor confidence to kill new builds and drive up existing yields. So far so good. Bring on the apocalypse and make it extra crispy please.
 
My thoughts in regard to above are that Australians are paying a higher interest rate then Americans for their house loans now.

RBA rate is about 7% and FED rate about 2.5% ( excuse inaccuracy as I haven't time to check as dashing off to watch Packed to the Rafters on TV).

Would not a foreign bank want to get a higher IR return by lending to Australians rather than a lower IR return lending to Amercians?

Hi Sheryn, you've got the key question:
it is usually like you said and untill 1 year ago was like that and money was flogging into Australia's bank and then into the pocket of Australian's borrowers and that fuel up the AU$ to be overvalued at nearly 1 to 1 with the US$.
What is happening now? what is this credit crunch everybody is talking about? why it is a problem to find someone to borrow you money even if it is a high rate?
first the FED rate at 2% is far from the real rate you get if you borrow your money to an Us banks. I was just reading few minutes ago on bloomberg the libor on the US$ is 6.88%, in Australia the equivalent rate these days is around 7.5%, you can see the difference is very minor. The banks can probably borrow at 2% in US and 7% in australia from their own central bank, but the central bank is suppose to be a serious cenral bank and want to have a real and reliable security in exchange for the money and a mortgage on a house that is dropping 20% a year like in US is not a kind of a good security, specially when there are the equivalent of tril of $ of those mortgages or dodgy security banks are ready to flog anyone that want them. In australia this hasn't happen as house prices are holding well and the economy is in quite good shape. The problem is that a foreign investor that look at what security australian bank have which are mostly mortgages of homes that are pretty much the most expensive of the western world are freaking out about lending more money to Australians, these money neded from outside Australia like WW is pointing out seems around 31% of what is needed. I beleive at the moment Australians banks don't get much funding from overseas and they get what they need from the RBA and probably they don't need as much money as the number of mortgages in australia has dropped big time in the last few months.
I hope to have answered few points
 
Would not a foreign bank want to get a higher IR return by lending to Australians rather than a lower IR return lending to Amercians?

Banks are in the business of risk adjusted return, a concept that can begin to be understood using the equation below.

Expected Profit = Probability of win * Size of win - Probability of Loss * Size of Loss.

If the outcome is >1, then the risk adjusted return is likely to be in profit.

Many things effect probabilities and size of wins and losses when lending money to people in foreign economies.
- foreign exchange risk (addressed above by Yield Matters)
- inflationary devaluation of currency
- economic growth
- political environment (effect of tax law, unions, environmentalism, and socialized services on business growth)
- national savings
- current account
- private and public foreign debt

Some of the main concerns foreign banks have about investing in Australia are:

- Australia's economy and dollar are viewed by the global community as highly sensitive to global demand for commodities such as coal, minerals, and agricultural products. If the price of these are going up, our economy will be seen as benefiting. Commodity prices are seen as comparatively volatile, so performance of investments in commodity economies can have high beta - volatility (or risk). Most investors seek low volatility. This volatility is expressed through the value of the AUD relative to the USD and other currencies.

- even though Australia has low public foreign debt, it has high private foreign debt (i.e. mining operations are 60% owned and financed by foreign interests, and property is now 31% dependent on foreign borrowing). The govt makes up for low public foreign debt by getting its income from a comparatively high taxation system. In fact, one of the disadvantages of a welfare state, is that the heavily taxed private sector is forced to more borrow funds from overseas (there's no free lunch). This adds to a high debt to gdp ratio, which is not healthy for the economy in the long term. You can understand it as a household having borrowed heavily for investment properties but having very little reserve income capacity to service the debt if rates move up.

- low national savings. This is a sign of country that consumes a high amount of goods and services compared to those it produces, either directly or by capital investment overseas. This adds risk to investing in our economy because our local banks have to borrow more from overseas to lend to us for whatever purpose. This makes us more at risk to whatever happens in global financial markets, such as the current credit crisis.

- when our interest rates are high, the govt is trying to restrain economic activity (to curb inflation) which restrains the current account from growing. If the bank constricts the economy too much, a recession is more likely, and that would add to the risk associated with a bank investing in Australian mortgages. We also have low national savings because we have driven our property prices up so high (and borrow significantly from overseas to do so) that much of our savings now flows overseas as interest. House prices are over 7 times the annual median wage. This is as boz says one of the highest rates in the world.

The take home message is that when an investment pays a high return, it is always because there is high risk. So high returns are not what savvy investors and banks look for.

All investors should seek high risk adjusted returns.
Though Joe Public does not know how to consider all aspects of risk appropriately.
 
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