What to do? What to do?

Sharemarkets are up and down like a yo-yo. My my, what IS the Fed going to do today? Interest rates are going higher, regardless of the RBA. The voices of doom and gloom are getting louder. Plenty of potential dominos still to fall in the debt world. And the 'odds of recession' are getting higher.

You know what I'm going to do? Exactly the same as if the above wasn't happening. I'm going to keep saving money, keep watching my cashflow, and buy property and shares when I see value, for the long term.

And I honestly believe we'll have a recession soon: falls in US consumption, coupled with more credit problems, causing China's structural issues to surface, which will cause a drop in resource demand. The size of the decrease in demand is in some ways irrelevant: it's the hit on consumer sentiment, the simple act of someone saying 'I won't buy that new car or go out as much until things are clearer' multipled a billion times across the world that will kill the economy. I believe we're near that psychological tipping point: certainly in the US, if not here.

So given that I think all this, why not sell everything and wait for price to get cheaper before buying back in? For me, the main reason is simple: I'm still in the building phase. That means at this stage my objective is to have as much money in the market working for me as I can. As a normal human, I find it very hard to put money into the market. When it is rising, I fear I've missed the boat. When it's falling, I fear it'll fall further. If I sell everything (paying a load of CGT), when do I go back in? If it falls further, I'll breathe a sigh of relief. Then what? When do I think it'll hit bottom? More likely I'll just miss the rebound as well. Instead, I might as well just keep the money working in the market, turn on the DRPs, and let it ride. I have no margin loans, by the way.

It's the same with property. I hold what I have, watch the rents go up, and research to buy more.

Because I'm still in the building phase, my current portfolio is only a fraction of its future size. In other words, the sort of money I'm losing now is nothing compared to the portfolio I will have in the future. And how do I build that big portfolio? By continuing to put money into the market. I'm going to keep buying and just ride it out.

Will you do better if sell out and buy back in at the right time? Yes. Do I have the skills / guts / experience to do that? No. And I suspect most of you don't, either. Instead, you'll just end up botching the timing AND get ulcers.

There will be traders, etc on the forum who disagree with the above. But I really don't mind, nor do I care. I have a plan, I'll stick to it whatever the market does, and you know what? With the markets gyrating the way the have, I've barely glanced at my portfolio. I sleep at night, and I certainly don't worry about it. Instead I feel excited about being able to buy in this market: everything I've read about rich people (and compounding) tells me that it's the assets you buy in the downmarket that makes you the most money.

If you want to and/or know how to trade, go ahead. If, like me, you're just a normal person wanting to get rich in a reasonable amount of time but don't want too much stress, I suggest this. Stop watching cnbc. Forget how many shares you have. Just stick to the plan (now would be a good time to create one). Get a handle on your cashflow. Keep saving money. Study the market, and when you see something that you see value in for the long term, go buy it. Don't go crazy with debt: just pick up assets gradually. Then go have a good night's sleep secure in the belief that you'll be rich over the long run.
Alex
 
Hi Alex,

You're always a good read at the end of a long day at work. I hope the world markets crash and burn and the only thing on the streets are the four riders of the apocalypse asking me for directions to Wall Street. Don't think it will be that bad but if an opportunity arises, I plan on being around to pick up some of the pieces. Does this mean I am a doom and gloomer?? No just a bargain hunter

I believe there will be bargains to pick up. I just have to watch my step and don't step in the horse crap along the way.

What to do, what to do?
Hope for the best and plan for the worst.
 
....and from stuff happening, rising, falling, ebbing, flowing, receding comes opportunity.:)

I'm building some more property (all going well).

I hope the world goes okay, don't like to see people suffer, but I got a good deal (for us, anyway) and I'm off to build.

Uffda..

C'est la vie!
 
Agree with sentiments of both previous posts. And with regards to property, in particular, I'd add the following: it doesn't matter what "the market" is doing so much, if you're not relying predominantly on the market to profit.

I buy in markets where the fundamentals are strong (infrastructure, population, employment, etc), and buy properties in which I can generate immediate equity, and hold.

So the particular property needs to allow me to:

1) buy at what I perceive is less than market value,

2) have the ability to add value (by strata titling, subdividing, renovating, extending etc), and/or

3) structure the deal's equity flow advantageously (eg extended settlement, vendor finance etc).

If I'm doing these things, the state of the market in the next 2 or 3 years isn't as big a concern... it's the particular deal that's important.
 
You know what I'm going to do? Exactly the same as if the above wasn't happening. I'm going to keep saving money, keep watching my cashflow, and buy property and shares when I see value, for the long term..

Alex,for myself i intend to just stick to the longterm plan,i could have sold down in the ASX ,payed the tax and parked the funds in the Bank at a safe 7%,startistics only tell you what happened one , or two months ago, the media takes extreme positions on the slide each day and the herd just follows their lead,as most have done over the past few weeks..
Real Estate and any other market is all about timing,and you don't have to be a punch-drunk investor to understand that simple rule,or have any delusions, i had lunch with a mate yesterday he had a margin call over a week ago for above 750k,he is in a real problem zone,like so many others that i know,everything was sold from under him,his properties will be next

Now is the time to stand back,survey the scene,and prepare to take advantage of the coming opportunties,because most with high debt will be blow out of the water,fortunes can be made riding the invesment waves,the trick is knowing when to get off and sit on the fence..
good luck willair..
Btw is you can find a copy of a book by Olly Newland,THE Day the Bubble
Bursts,or The Rascal's Guide to Real Estate,they are well worth the time
and money to read,he is a person that has invested in several booms in NSW,and his home of New Zealand and a very smart man..IMHO..
 
We are in the position of winding down to retirement.

We did a bit of a property shuffle 6-8 months ago and now hold only IPs we intend to keep indefinitely.

We have moved our super balance to more conservative options, but our ongoing contributions will continue to go into the more aggressive areas so that we can take advantage of the lower entry prices as the stock market continues to bounce up and down.

Having lived through 2 nasty recessions, the only advice I can give is that if things go belly-up then "cash is king". Maybe build up a bit of a buffer so that you can take advantage of opportunities that will arise.

Otherwise, hold tight and ride it through.
Marg
 
Alex,for myself i intend to just stick to the longterm plan,i could have sold down in the ASX ,payed the tax and parked the funds in the Bank at a safe 7%,startistics only tell you what happened one , or two months ago, the media takes extreme positions on the slide each day and the herd just follows their lead,as most have done over the past few weeks..
Real Estate and any other market is all about timing,and you don't have to be a punch-drunk investor to understand that simple rule,or have any delusions, i had lunch with a mate yesterday he had a margin call over a week ago for above 750k,he is in a real problem zone,like so many others that i know,everything was sold from under him,his properties will be next

I could sell and maybe sit out a 10% downturn or whatever. But then what? Over the long term I'll need to have much more in the market than I do now to get rich. So that means if I sell everything, eventually I have to put the money back to work. When? How? I quite honestly, don't need the stress. Sure I might be giving up the 'chance' of avoiding some losses, but I'm running an even bigger risk of being underinvested over the long term. At 30, the latter will cost me more.

I have no delusions about timing the market. One reason why I don't go for margin loans. i'm considering redrawing from a mortgage to buy more shares, though. As a conservative investor, I don't really see a time when the stars come into alignment and I should back up the truck. When everything looks rosy, THAT's the most dangerous. It is said that in Davos 2007 (early 2007), no one mentioned subprime.

Btw is you can find a copy of a book by Olly Newland,THE Day the Bubble
Bursts,or The Rascal's Guide to Real Estate,they are well worth the time
and money to read,he is a person that has invested in several booms in NSW,and his home of New Zealand and a very smart man..IMHO..

I've read both. He sounds like a bit of an a*s but his ideas are interesting.
Alex
 
everyone is a genius in the boom - people speculating where it will go and people paying to hear it.

these are the times that the wheat gets seperated from the chaff. if you've pulled all your money out of everything and stuck it in an offset account or term deposit - then good for you. that's a safe and reliable option.

if you're out there picking up bargains at traditionally VERY low prices then good for you as well - you're looking forward and seeing the potential growth in what is a VERY oversold market. it's a bit of a gamble but nothing ventured, nothing gained and having money in the market you will gain experience in these times.

if you're buying up big to "offset" the losses you are currently making because you refuse to sell those stocks/properties you bought at the height of the boom then i pity you. how do you erase a loss by getting yourself further into the losing position in the first place?

trouble is, option 3 is what all the "gurus" are talking about doing to "minimise your loss percentage". by maximising your exposure in a falling market? ever heard of stop losses? they apply to both shares and property.

wheat from the chaff.

of course - when in doubt, stay out. dont; bother and get some sleep. there are ALWAYS good opportunities out there, regardless if those stupid magazines and reporters tell you that you "missed the boat".

just keep watching and learning.
 
if you're buying up big to "offset" the losses you are currently making because you refuse to sell those stocks/properties you bought at the height of the boom then i pity you. how do you erase a loss by getting yourself further into the losing position in the first place?

trouble is, option 3 is what all the "gurus" are talking about doing to "minimise your loss percentage". by maximising your exposure in a falling market? ever heard of stop losses? they apply to both shares and property.

As I said, if you know how to trade, and have the skills to, great. If not, it makes much more sense to just buy gradually. Buy conservatively in a boom, AND buy conservatively in a bust. I plan to buy again soon, and have built into my plans the expectation that the maket will get worse before it gets better.

So why not wait until the market bottoms, you ask? Because I'm just an ordinary guy, and not a trader. I believe that by sticking to a gradual buying plan, I'll end up owning more than if I tried to time the market. I'll also have a lot less stress. I'm certainly not talking about maximising your exposure. I plan to increase my exposure gradually.

The key point for me is that whether the market rises or falls in the short or even medium term doesn't affect what I do. I bought gradually starting 2000 and built up some good assets during this last boom. I'll keep buying gradually now that we seem to be coming to a downturn, and I'll emerge into the next boom with a bigger portfolio.

As someone who has a decent amount of exposure but on average has a cost base at around 2003 prices, I'm quite happy just to STAY in the market AND still sleep soundly.

How do you erase a loss by increasing exposure? With time. I believe that with time prices will go back up and past the previous peak. Traders look to trade short term movements. I don't have the skill or the guts (despite seeing it in action every day at work) to trade, so I'll do the next best thing. Keep my exposure manageable, gradually increase it, and leverage the fact that I am still relatively young.
Alex
 
Selling property is a pain in the ar$e.

Can't be bothered doing that, and I don't have any shares worth noting that can tank overnight while I'm snoozing.

Even though the LVR is ok, I'll just keep on reducing the debt, get ready for the slowdown and then go shopping for the bargains.

Just after the papers tell us it's all bad; maybe wait a little bit until the stampede subsides.
 
Sharemarkets are up and down like a yo-yo. My my, what IS the Fed going to do today? Interest rates are going higher, regardless of the RBA. The voices of doom and gloom are getting louder. Plenty of potential dominos still to fall in the debt world. And the 'odds of recession' are getting higher.

You know what I'm going to do? Exactly the same as if the above wasn't happening. I'm going to keep saving money, keep watching my cashflow, and buy property and shares when I see value, for the long term.

And I honestly believe we'll have a recession soon: falls in US consumption, coupled with more credit problems, causing China's structural issues to surface, which will cause a drop in resource demand. The size of the decrease in demand is in some ways irrelevant: it's the hit on consumer sentiment, the simple act of someone saying 'I won't buy that new car or go out as much until things are clearer' multipled a billion times across the world that will kill the economy. I believe we're near that psychological tipping point: certainly in the US, if not here.

So given that I think all this, why not sell everything and wait for price to get cheaper before buying back in? For me, the main reason is simple: I'm still in the building phase. That means at this stage my objective is to have as much money in the market working for me as I can. As a normal human, I find it very hard to put money into the market. When it is rising, I fear I've missed the boat. When it's falling, I fear it'll fall further. If I sell everything (paying a load of CGT), when do I go back in? If it falls further, I'll breathe a sigh of relief. Then what? When do I think it'll hit bottom? More likely I'll just miss the rebound as well. Instead, I might as well just keep the money working in the market, turn on the DRPs, and let it ride. I have no margin loans, by the way.

It's the same with property. I hold what I have, watch the rents go up, and research to buy more.

Because I'm still in the building phase, my current portfolio is only a fraction of its future size. In other words, the sort of money I'm losing now is nothing compared to the portfolio I will have in the future. And how do I build that big portfolio? By continuing to put money into the market. I'm going to keep buying and just ride it out.

Will you do better if sell out and buy back in at the right time? Yes. Do I have the skills / guts / experience to do that? No. And I suspect most of you don't, either. Instead, you'll just end up botching the timing AND get ulcers.

There will be traders, etc on the forum who disagree with the above. But I really don't mind, nor do I care. I have a plan, I'll stick to it whatever the market does, and you know what? With the markets gyrating the way the have, I've barely glanced at my portfolio. I sleep at night, and I certainly don't worry about it. Instead I feel excited about being able to buy in this market: everything I've read about rich people (and compounding) tells me that it's the assets you buy in the downmarket that makes you the most money.

If you want to and/or know how to trade, go ahead. If, like me, you're just a normal person wanting to get rich in a reasonable amount of time but don't want too much stress, I suggest this. Stop watching cnbc. Forget how many shares you have. Just stick to the plan (now would be a good time to create one). Get a handle on your cashflow. Keep saving money. Study the market, and when you see something that you see value in for the long term, go buy it. Don't go crazy with debt: just pick up assets gradually. Then go have a good night's sleep secure in the belief that you'll be rich over the long run.
Alex


Great post Alex, and seeing you have been around for a long time, i think alot of new commers should take notice:)
 
i had lunch with a mate yesterday he had a margin call over a week ago for above 750k,he is in a real problem zone,like so many others that i know,everything was sold from under him,his properties will be next

I bet there are a few other people on margin that are hurting. I could not believe over the last few years that every piece of financial advise in a newspaper column, magazine etc was to invest in shares and/or managed funds and utilise a margin. It seemed to be peddled as a conservative strategy for a conservative long term investor. Funny how one did not see much in the media on the topic in the period 2000-2003.

Regards
Able
 
I bet there are a few other people on margin that are hurting. I could not believe over the last few years that every piece of financial advise in a newspaper column, magazine etc was to invest in shares and/or managed funds and utilise a margin. It seemed to be peddled as a conservative strategy for a conservative long term investor. Funny how one did not see much in the media on the topic in the period 2000-2003.

Regards
Able

Spot on Able, if you follow the rest of the market you will never get abnormal returns. Now the media will be going on about how dangerous this strategy is. On the bright side however it is clearing all 'froth' from the market.

I remember my broker last year saying that i should be more agressive in my stock selection. Had a quick chat to him today and he said he is advising his clients to shore up their holdings, dispose of non core holdings and stick to 'big cap' conservative stocks. Amazing what 6 months in the market can do to a person.:D
 
Honestly Alex, after reading all the above, I still have no idea what your strategy is.

On the one hand you say you aren't in to buying wrt timing.

On the other hand, you say you will buy value when you see it, conservatively and gradually....

The above implies you adopt DCA, whether for property or shares.

But then above you say you are factoring in a downturn in the market soon. So does this mean you actually do stall your entry points wrt to what is happening in Mr Market? And why would you bother buying in Brisbane rather than Sydney if you are oblivious to market timing? Personally, I think it is fuzzy thinking to believe timing and value are not interdependent.

Not trying to be a smart ***, but I'd find your strategy less ambiguous and fuzzy, if you spell out how exactly you generate a buy signal, especially for property. At this point, I have no idea. It is easy to say you'll buy value when you see it.....harder to define how you recognise that value consistently across time.

Good luck with your strategy and determining value irrespective of time.
 
Honestly Alex, after reading all the above, I still have no idea what your strategy is.

Buy and hold pretty much sums it up.

On the one hand you say you aren't in to buying wrt timing.

In the sense of I don't sell just because the market is down. I don't have the guts to sell everything and buy back in later. Nor do I have the guts to just max out my borrowings if I think an area is about to boom.

On the other hand, you say you will buy value when you see it, conservatively and gradually....

The above implies you adopt DCA, whether for property or shares.

Yes, I'm dollar cost averaging, over the long term. Dollar cost averaging doesn't require specific timing.

But then above you say you are factoring in a downturn in the market soon. So does this mean you actually do stall your entry points wrt to what is happening in Mr Market? And why would you bother buying in Brisbane rather than Sydney if you are oblivious to market timing? Personally, I think it is fuzzy thinking to believe timing and value are not interdependent.

Not exactly. I am predicting a recession, yes. That doesn't affect my plan. I've factored it into my THINKING, so if I buy and the price falls, I won't lose any sleep over it because I've already imagined the possibility.

I am planning to buy in Sydney for my next one. Because at this particular point in time, I believe the areas I'm looking at in Sydney have good potential. I'm not choosing the TIME that I'm going to invest. But on the basis that I'll invest periodically, I'll just keep looking for the best opportunities I can identify at THIS point in time.

A lot of people have been asking 'when should I buy? Should I wait? Or not? I've sold, when do I buy back in?' I don't worry about that. I just think 'ok, I'm in a position to buy a property for, say, $300k, and hold it for the long term. So I'll buy now. Let's have a look and see what area I think is the best value for money RIGHT now.'

The actions I actually take would not really change whether I was predicting a boom or a recession. The whole point of my plan is that I'm NOT stalling the buying just because I think the market is going down, or nor will I buy more just because I think the market is going up.

Not trying to be a smart ***, but I'd find your strategy less ambiguous and fuzzy, if you spell out how exactly you generate a buy signal, especially for property. At this point, I have no idea. It is easy to say you'll buy value when you see it.....harder to define how you recognise that value consistently across time.

I quite agree. It's fuzzy. It's ambiguous. It's not 'smart'. I see value everywhere when I look at it from a 10+ years point of view. The great thing with me is that I don't HAVE to recognise value consistently. At my age, TIME will correct most of the bad choices I make, and I believe I have enough experience that I won't make the REALLY stupid buys.

I DON'T have a clear buy signal. I buy property that I think has potential (transport, shops, people moving in, new developments) that have a relatively decent yield. But that can apply to hundreds of suburbs.

In 20 years, ANYTHING would have been a good buy, assuming, of course, that you can hold it until then (and that's where the cashflow management comes in).

This is not an 'action plan'. Rather, it is an 'inaction plan'. It's created for people like me: lazy, but with good cashflow and have the time for it to work out. Just get it sort of right, and with time I'll be rich.

I have no interest in whether people follow this or not. However, I've heard a lot of people on the forum flail around worrying about the market, and I'm just putting down my point of view. If you have a better plan, good for you. I'm sure the traders amongst the forumites are snorting at my simple plodding. But traders thrive on risk and the excitement of the market. I want to enjoy my life and have a good night's sleep.
Alex
 
Last edited:
I DON'T have a clear buy signal. I buy property that I think has potential (transport, shops, people moving in, new developments) that have a relatively decent yield. But that can apply to hundreds of suburbs.

In 20 years, ANYTHING would have been a good buy, assuming, of course, that you can hold it until then (and that's where the cashflow management comes in).
Alex

Alex,

How do you determine what is 'good value' for shares?

How do you define it?
 
Back
Top