what will happen if hdt's outlawed?

i posted this question in another thread - but it has made me start to think.

the ato is examining hdt's to see if they are valid, and potentially introducing legislation to outlaw them.

if this comes to pass, i wonder what affect it will have on serious investors. there are very few positively geared properties in australia at the moment.

the only other options would be to purchase in a family trust - ties up all losses within the trust and cannot be claimed against other income - or purchase in personal names - where the property is not protected from the law and income cannot be dispursed to other beneficaries when the property "eventually" turns positive.

what are people's thoughts?

i don't think it will affect as bad a fallout as removing negative gearing, but there would be some impact as i imagine a lot of serious investors have hdt's.
 
ithe ato is examining hdt's to see if they are valid, and potentially introducing legislation to outlaw them.
.

How does the ATO "outlaw" something ? For that matter, how does the ATO introduce legislation ? I thought they inforced the laws made by government.

I don't want any worms today thanks, but all the ATO can do is try to restrict and/or deny deductions and tax treatment. A trust is still a trust and the ATO can't to anything about that.
 
I think that Lizzie meant denying the tax deductibility; it is highly unlikely that they would deny the legitimacy of the structure in any circumstances.

I use trusts but I do agree that the asset protection aspect can be overstated. You can probably achieve sufficient protection for 99.9% of circumstances by taking the following measures:

  1. keeping LVRs high so there's little free equity to be accessed via litigation anyway
  2. protecting remaining free equity with "friendly debt", ie a registered mortgage to a family member or relative
  3. having appropriate insurances (by which I don't mean your best guess or ringing around for the cheapest policy, but what a knowledgable broker recommends that you need)
 
I
  1. keeping LVRs high so there's little free equity to be accessed via litigation anyway


This concept does not stop you from getting sued. I am speaking from experience, having just been involved in a court case where there were no assets to be had in our structure.

All a high debt level does is reduce the incidence (or attractiveness) of someone suing you, they can still sue you and you would still need to mount a defense. This in itself can be a very expensive exercise.

The alternative to mounting a defense is to declare the entity bankrupt and liquidate the asset, hardly a desirable outcome.

I feel that the high LVR still plays a part of the concept of asset protection but don't be fooled into believing that this will protect you 100% of the time.

Cheers
 
Without discussing the validity of HDTs, if the ATO outlawed them (not by creating new law but by creating legal precedent in its interpretation of existing laws: that's why the tax laws are so vague), some interest deductions will be disallowed. Going forward, losses are trapped in the trust (the same as with a family trust).

Effect on property prices? I would say not much. The majority of property investors only have one IP. I can't imagine many of those people (who only plan on having 'one property to live in, one property to fund retirement' anyway) would be using HDTs? They'd just buy in their own names.
Alex
 
Oh man that sucks. Do you mind sharing what happened? I'd like to know the real world scenarios rather than all the scare stuff out there.

Be as vauge or as brief as you want.
 
it wasn't the asset protection that enticed us - rather the ability to claim losses against income whilst negatively geared (against the high income earner), but as soon as they turn positive the positive income can be dispersed to the lower income earner - reducing the tax paid either way.

i had heard on ss (can't recall what thread) that the tax office are expecting to make a decision within 6 months and yesterday my accountant warned me that hdt's are risky for the future.
 
I believe a decision was supposed to come from the tax department early this year ( and it was also supposed to come late last year)

I suppose time will only tell whether it will effect the trusts "already in existence"
Perhaps it can't be retrospective, but there's nothing to say that all future returns wont have to abide by the new rulings " what ever that ruling may be"

As Alex pointed out it only a small minority which would have bought this way and it's effects would be minimal in the big picture but costly to those of us who do use them. Personally we hold in both trust and personal names, so for us it would mean if we sold down we would offload the trust ones first and any possible future purchases would only be in personal names but, and that's a big but, this assumes the changes will come and be drastic.

The news to hand is that they are investigating their position,
so let's just wait an see.
 
I've mentioned this before in another thread but will repeat it here... i also got caught up in the hype of HDT's and set one up with a corporate trustee about 5yrs ago for investments. I also set up a DT which is used for business and they both share the same corporate trustee. In hindsight it was a bad decision and is overkill for my circumstances.

I only have one IP and some managed funds in the HDT. I have since been buying assets in my own name. In the meantime i still pay ASIC $212 pa for company name registration and my tax prep fees are also higher as a result.

Anyway, i have investigated ways of getting the trust disolved and my solicitor tells me that she can prepare a deed of appointment of new trustee for $330 per trust. So that's $660 to get rid of the corporate trustee and appoint myself as trustee. I can go to the ASIC website and de-register the company online. This will at least save me the annual ASIC fees until i sell the assets held in the trust.

I don't think there is a way to transfer these assets to myself without incurring CGT and stamp duty but i'm happy to be corrected.
 
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So what other options are there if all this goes pear-shaped?

1. Sell the trust assets (hopefully at a profit!) to redeem the income units and buy assets in your own name instead.

2. The trust takes out a loan and buys the income units back off you. You then operate the HDT as a standard DT, with losses trapped in the trust. If possible distribute positive cashflow from other trusts to offset the losses.

3. Redeem the income units (on paper only) and create a loan to the trust, with the same result as above.

Any other ideas?

Say if you used a LOC to fund the 10-20% deposit for the property in the trust, secured against an IP held in your own name, I guess you would choose option 3? Otherwise if you get rid of the income units the interest on the LOC will no longer be deductible either.

Is it easy to set up a loan to a trust and can you document this yourself? I assume you would charge the trust an identical interest rate to what you are paying your own lender so the repayments from the trust cancel out your own repayments in your tax return, and leaving the interest deduction within the trust.
 
A saying I had in the Army was 'it's OK to be wrong as long as we are ALL wrong'.

I just think there are too many people involved in HDTs for there to be any super serious negative changes.
 
sorry, not sure on posting a link so I've copied an article from LawCentral.com.au


Hybrid Trusts - Where are we now? Where are we going?

Last year I discussed the advantages of negative gearing within a Hybrid Trust and the 'new' approach of the ATO when dealing with this.

Hybrid Trusts, as the name suggests, are a combination of a Discretionary Trust and a Unit Trust. Unit holders are entitled to fixed income and/ or capital. However, there is still a lot of flexibility for the Trustee to deal with the income and capital of the Trust.
You may recall the ATO had various concerns with the 'normal' Hybrid Trust. The ATO issued various Private Binding Rulings which we were able to get our hands on - such as PR 66594 and PR 71023.
The issues of the ATO were:

The Trustee has discretion to who and how much income is distributed;
The Trustee can decide not to distribute income at all;
The Trustee has total discretion in relation to the distribution of Capital gain; and
Units can be redeemed for the issue price, with no consequences for the taxpayer.
The ATO is probably wrong. However, without discussing the merits of the ATO opinion, the problem is that the ATO is quite often the arbitrator. You really do not like to mess with the arbitrator. If they get upset, they make you go to court, or worse still, keep auditing you for the rest of your life every year.

I have had various clients who would like to set up a Hybrid Trust, but also wanted certainty in relation to the structure used.

In consultation with the client, a Hybrid Trust was drafted that dealt with the ATO concerns and took into account the specifics of the client.

The Trust deed was drafted in such a way that:

The Trustee has to distribute income to unit holders;
The Trust deed didn't allow income to accumulate;
If there is a Capital gain, this has to be distributed to the Income Unit Holders; and finally
Units must to be repurchased for the market value, not the issue price.
The client then lodged a private ruling application in August 2007 and hoped that a swift and satisfying answer could be received by the ATO.

My client received the acknowledgment letter from the ATO. In that letter, he was strangely informed that if he wished, he could withdraw his application. Why would you lodge an application to withdraw a ruling the next day?

The client was informed a month later in a second letter that, "The Commissioner currently has no formal position on the tax consequences of investing in a discretionary Hybrid Trust". How does this fit in with the various private rulings?

My client was also informed that the Commissioner was working on the development of such a view. However, the variety of Hybrid Trusts and the complexity of the issue meant this needed time.

Then, at the end of 2007, my client received another email indicating that the ATO was still working on the issue and there should be some progress in early 2008.

So, where does this leave us?

We can do nothing and just buy property in our own names
I believe this is not the best approach taking into account a more litigious society. Tenants sue you. Further, State Governments are increasing Land Tax on a progressive scale.

We can wait until we receive the new opinion by the ATO regarding how they intend to deal with Hybrid Trusts. However, that could take another year. With the stock exchange taking a hit, property prices may go through the roof.
We can be pro-active. Advance tax planning and a well drafted Hybrid Trust deed which addresses the ATO concerns, should withstand any ATO scrutiny and give an investor the flexibility and peace of mind he deserves.

Thomas Henn, Brett Davies Lawyers
 
Seems to me this new form of HDT outlined by LawCentral could be approximated with an ordinary unit trust. If the unit holder of the HDT needs to receive market value at redemption and potentially pay CGT, and also has to receive all capital gains, then the same thing could be done just by redeeming and reissuing units in a standard unit trust as appropriate.

The main difference I see would be the need to issue units in the proportion required for distribution in advance rather than being able to just discretionally decide that proportion at the end of the financial year.

GP
 
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