what would you do in this instance..

[seabreeeze_99]

I need some advise on this instance..

Tuesday 17th, when tradies were attending my ip, it was discovered that there was seven eight week old puppies on the premies. They were locked in the patio area which I understand you could smell from way outside near the carport area.. To say it was a mess is huge understatement.

We needed to get the PM to give us access to house as the tenant had forgotten to unlock the front door security. This was a blessing as the PM seems to very much on the side of the tenant in all matter until seeing this... poor kid could hardly keep it together.. sadly for her she had grabbed the wrong key and had to go into the patio area to open the house and she was surrounded by puppies - apparently one p*ssed on her - she was not impressed.. Tradies had commented on the smell of the place..

PM issues a Notice of Remedy to remove the pups but no mention of the cleaning up of the place.. when I query, I told once the puppies are gone, the mess will be gone. I stress my disbelief the fact that from the smell of the inside of the house, dogs had been inside which is a total violation of the RE policy - Dogs are to remain outside.. and the tenants are not being asked to clean inside and what was stopping them from having their dogs in until they are due to leave the place.. place already smell of dog...

A Notice of Remedy was then issued for the property up to standard it was in when they entered the property. Inspection is to happen this Friday, I advise PM, I would be flying from Darwin to attend this inspection. Down and back home same day

I also did some research and advise the PM, I believe that the tenants are in violation of the Moreton shire council regulatons in regards to owning and breeding animal and also, considering that the parent dogs are not mongrels and the tenants own both father and mother, I believe they are breeders.

Apparently, the shire council have received complaints relating to noise and smell of the property.

Sorry this is so long....

Today I get a letter from the tenant via the PM asking for retrospective application to keep the puppies for another four weeks until they are sold..

Their reasoning in brief are the pups are seen as children and they want to ensure they are sold to the right person; Financial reason to recoup some of the costs and pay off some debts; Four weeks because this is roughly the time it took them to sell the previous litter![/B]

The letter goes on about how they did not know they needed to get permisson, they never hide the pups and they alway intended once all pups were gone, to clean and disinfect the patio area!! It continues on about how hard it is for the tenant to look after the pups solely as her partner is a FIFO worker.. She claims to clean up the enclosed area each morning and night but cannot stay ontop of it as she away for long period during the day working in the city... ( government worker) She mentions...... she cannot waste water and hose down the area every day Even thought the block is 1000m she does not like the pups roaming the garden as there has been ticks on the parents and they pups cannot be treated.. she goes on about the stress of all this and the high blood pressure she is suffering and the fact they cannot afford to be evicted and were hoping to move into place closer to the city once this tenancy finished in February.. They are living in limbo and have not unpacked everything as they will be moving again (tenancy was for 10 months)

She stresses they have never had problems before and alway got their bond back in the past tenancies.. She states as the puppies are sold, their numbers will go down and the stress of the pups will reduce until they are all gone.. She feels atad attacked learning that a judgement of Notice of Remedy was issued on the Tuesday!!! She goes on about lost job of partner, female dog was scheduled to be desexed earlier in the year but because of lost job, desexing was downgraded to low priority and the one time she took her eye off the dogs, they got up to no good...

The four week extension is until 27/09/2010 which is the same day that the female dog is suppose to be desexed. I have not idea what happen in regards to the shire council and inspector checking into the sitution.

I am a dog owner and as this was my first tenancy, was talked into allowing dogs which I did not see any harm in.. It did not enter my mind to think about extending requirement to desexed dogs..

Okay folks, if I still have you reading.. what would you be doing in this instance???

From where I stand, the pups are still in violation of the shire council, they are still pooing and making noise which is annoying the neighbours.. God, only know what other damage they are doing They are left alone on the premise most of the day while the tenant is out at work.. And she asking for another four weeks to sell all.. who being unfair...

From the limited experience I have had with puppies with buying from sellers usually them advertised early so interested folks come and see the pups when they are young, make their selection and then come and pick up when they are 7/8 weeks old.. Maybe this is a Darwin thing.

Any comment would be appreciated.. I am not sure where go from here.

Thanks heaps,

seabreeze

 

[seabreeeze_99]

Somone must have opinion on what they would do in such a situation.

My gut feeling is that considering they are Queenslanders and they from Deception bay which is part of the Moreton Bay Shire council, they know or should know the regulations relating to dog ownership, breeding, belonging to a dog group etc. The fact she has admitted to second litter, stress of the puppies and not being able to keep their area clean, the puppies go, no extension.

Now if she elected to take leave from her job and care for the puppies so they were not living in filth, the patio was cleaned and she can supervise the noise etc, then she could keep the puppies for the fortnight in the hope she sell all.. Her partner, FIFO worker should be in town soon hence he could take over a week of babysitting duties..

I cannot understand why she has not started the advertising and selling process already so it just a matter of paying and collecting the chosen puppy when they turn seven weeks..

I feel I need to speak to the council inspector who is looking after the case as if I agree to keeping the puppies for four more weeks, I too am breaking council legislation, not the way I would like to do considering I bringing my own mutts down in March next year. Maybe he should be at the meeting on Friday also???

Have to admit, I am not totally convinced that the mother dog will be desexed.. gut feeling again. i think it a story. And as dogs come on heat roughly every six month, she should be back on heat at christmas time hence here we go again.. Upside to this, the tenancy finishes on late February.

She was served on the 18 August, pups are suppose to be gone by this Friday, the letter sent to the PM on 20 August but I received it today, this afternoon, hence I reckon pups will all be there Friday for the inspection. So is it a matter of giving her another week to get rid of the dogs or make arrangements to be there at the property caring for the pups so they are not causing any damage, mess or noise??

I am abit nervious of VCAT, sound abit scarey to me.. I would like this resolved soon and nicely. I have ready the PM tenancy contracts for tenants with pets..says the number of pets to live at the house is 2 !!!
So why would she think that the offsprings would not count... they been there for eight weeks already..

Come of guys, there are many of you who are experience landlord, property managers, know the ins and out of property management/rental laws and regulations back to front (well that is what appears to me from reading the chatter on this forum.. I so need some words of wisdom and strategy of how to approach this on Friday while being seen as fair but firm..

Coooeeeeeeeee, to all the wise folks of this forum..

 

[Jen_PFR]

Apart from anything else, I'd be anonymously reporting your tenant to the RSPCA. Your tenant's other problems are no excuse for letting those dogs live in that condition. I'd also be mentioning the fact that she appears to be running a puppy mill.

 

[wylie]

For me as a dog owner and dog lover, I would hate that she be turfed out if it means the dogs will be destroyed, but I doubt that would happen. However, she will be hard pressed to find somewhere else to stay with a pile of puppies. That really is not your problem however, and she needs to find an answer to her problem.

Her problem is that she has been given a notice to remedy breach. If she doesn't do that, then PM should issue a notice to leave. Two times I have been associated with a tribunal visit, tenants lost each time due to them clearly being in the wrong, so don't fear the tribunal.

If this was my house and a tenant had a dog that had a litter, I would be happy if things were not smelly, noisy etc, especially if it involved only two months, but I have heard that puppies bring a lot of mess, smell etc.

This is obviously the case with your house, so I would put in writing to the PM that the bond is not to be returned until the place is back to the condition it was in at the start of the tenancy.

That may mean that a professional clean is required to rid the house of puppy mess and have it deodorized, so insist that the PM holds back enough bond to pay for that.

Of course, your tenant may clean up properly. Fingers crossed. I also would be bringing the local council into the picture to back you up.

Good luck, and please don't let this put you off allowing pets. We have never had this problem (though we did have a tenant who thought it was fine to have their two ducks upstairs with them because they had a cold ). We suggested they find somewhere more rural and they moved soon after.

 

[kathryn d]

I agree with a lot Wylie is saying on this.

We are also animal lovers, and my heart goes out to these poor innocent pups.
Hopefully the rent is always paid on time, and no other issues concerning the interior of the house.

My daughter's dog had 4 puppies a couple of years ago, so I do understand how much of a handful they can be. Doesn't excuse her from cleaning up on the weekends and when she comes home from work.

Report them after the pups are gone and your place is cleaned. Look after your property first.
I imagine these pups are worth a lot of money.

 

[pully]

very disturbing tale.

your tenants do not sound like breeders who know how to care for animals and their welfare. you say they have said they look upon the puppies as their children?! we can be thankful that at least they are not children or it would be more serious.

allowing the dogs to breed and then not to demonstrate an ability to provide proper care for the animals is irresponsible to say the least.

sounds as if the council and authorities are involved and as the landlord you are too.

the animals are at risk in the present conditions and you are not happy for that to continue. your agent was not aware of the situation??

you have no guarantee that the tenants will follow up with desexing the animals in the future. plus you do not want or need to be a party to this situation on your property.

move them on but ensure the property will be returned to its original condition. other properties will be more appropriate for animal breeding.

it is a vile business to breed animals in the manner you describe, puppy farming is cruel and needs to be stopped, backyard or otherwise.

you may also like to look at your property manager and their role in this miserable business.

 

[Simon]

My dog had ten puppies - a big surprise after the ultra sound showed four.

I kept them under the kitchen table as there was no suitable spot outside for them in winter. Even whenn they were older I'd let them play outside only while I was watching as a big black crow would watch them nonstop...

So I mopped each morning. My ex wife moaned a lot about the mess - hard to toilet train little pups but then she moaned about everything so it wasn't much different really.

I sold them all at 8 weeks but most buyers left them with us until the 10 or 12 week mark. Makes for a better pet if they are mothered that bit longer. Rosie the Wonder Dog was an excellent mum too.

Landlord had agreed to one outside dog but the PM said there was no shelter and she didn't care if the dog was inside. 3 years later and half a dozen inspections later there is still no problem with my "outside dog".

The mess will dissappear. Smells don't last - esp outside.

Don't be making this problem bigger than it needs to be. If the tenant is otherwise great then just get an assurance that this will be the last litter and then move on.

My daughters and I loved having ten puppies in the house and I'd love to do it again sometime.

I got abused by folks who say I was irresponsible and telling me all the things that could go wrong but I am still in touch with most of the new owners and they all love their funny looking mongrel poodles or spoodles as some call them and everytime I watch telly I thank Rosie the Wonder Dog for the plasma she paid for

 

[wylie]

They were locked in the patio area which I understand you could smell from way outside near the carport area.. To say it was a mess is huge understatement.

Tradies had commented on the smell of the place..

I stress my disbelief the fact that from the smell of the inside of the house....

Apparently, the shire council have received complaints relating to noise and smell of the property.

Simon, you sound like you make waaaaaay more effort with your puppies than this tenant.

This sounds like it is perhaps a bigger problem if neighbours are complaining of noise and smell.

I hope they either sell the dogs and remedy the breach, or move and clean up properly.

It will probably all be okay, but these tenants have abused your generosity of allowing a dog and surely they can understand your concerns about the cleanliness and smells and issues with neighbours complaints.

 

[rugrat]

Apart from anything else, I'd be anonymously reporting your tenant to the RSPCA. Your tenant's other problems are no excuse for letting those dogs live in that condition. I'd also be mentioning the fact that she appears to be running a puppy mill.

Yep this!!!
Backyard breeders are most often not very humane in my experience. I would be reporting them to the council, to the RSPCA and then continuing with your notices. People like this make me mad. They are just in it for a quick buck with no real care as to the animals invovled. Just think, this person is getting between $500-1000 per puppy (maybe more depending on the breed). Most backyard breeders do not have much overhead costs, because they fail to provide adequate care for the animals in question - so this is absolute rubbish about 'recouping costs'. Newborn puppies need round the clock care and attention. They need to be taken care of properly with proper vet checks and hygenic living environments.


Further, I know in ACT and NSW at least, puppies are not allowed to be sold or given away any younger then 8 weeks of age. If the RSPCA get involved they will likely request that she surrender the mother as well as the pups (at least temporarily until they are old enough to be weaned properly.

 

[ozsupra]

Up until a few years ago I was always inclined to be reasonable with my tenants. Previously I would have tried to find middle ground and come up with a mutually agreeable solution. Recently every time I have tried to be reasonable, sympathetic or understanding I have gotten totally screwed over. Following numerous court cases and dept collection attempts I have now formed a new policy; write a detailed fair rental agreement, take photocopies of documents to 100 points and strictly, legally enforce that agreement, no leeway, no exceptions.
I afraid, if I was you Seebreeze I would be commencing eviction processes.

 

[Simon]

Based on one (emotive) side to a story we are all quick to label someone a puppy farmer.

Maybe we should crucify them?

 

[The Y-man]

One of my staff at work recently had pups - er hang on, his dog had pups - 9 of them (all presold by the way!). Anyway, he had to take a few weeks off work as they not only have to be cleaned and kept warm, they need assistance with feeding (they fall off the teat when the mother moves slightly - so he said it was like a production line where once you got the 9th one feeding properly, the first one would have fallen off). So feeding takes a good half hour or so. This needs to happen every 3 hours - night and day!

The Y-man

 

[alplant]

I agree with Simon on this, she admits to one other litter so suddenly she's a puppy farmer? I think that's a bit of a stretch.

I don't know what you should do about your problem Seabreeze because I have never had a tenant who was breeding puppies but my gut instinct would be to see how it pans out when the puppies are gone and she has the chance to clean up. If the puppies were still there in a few weeks (they can be sold at eight weeks) then maybe I would insist that she remove them from the premises. I'm sure the local pet shop would take them off her hands if needs be. Not that I approve of puppies being sold at pet shops but it would be better in this case than them having to be put down. As for the council I would think that a litter of puppies wouldn't be considered as having too many dogs as such. Most councils give you until the puppy is six months or so before you even have to register them. And that makes me wonder about what is written in a lease as well. I wonder if anyone knows if allowing one or two dogs on a lease means the tenant would really be in breach if one of the dogs has puppies. It might be looked at a bit differently given that they are to be sold.

 

[seabreeeze_99]

Hi, I would like to thank everyone for their comments and ideas, very much appreciate you going to the trouble of reading my epic and then replying.

Please rest assure I will not allow this issue to stop me from allowing pets on my premises in the further. I know there is many good pet owners out there and really look after their pets and the dwelling they are renting.. I probably will make be ensuring they are desexed dogs however (sorry not a cat person)

Simon, I do not know what to say to you mate - 10 puppies living under the kitchen table.. 10..10...10..10 HOLY COWS!!!! I get the idea you were home to care for these pups during the day, which is good.. Madness or what, I did see a pix of Rosie the wonder dog and she is beautiful so you cannot be all that bad.. However, I believe I would have been in your ex wife camp with the whinging and going mad... 10 puppies!!! And inside too

I tried to ring the council today to chat to the dog inspector who is looking after the problem but he was not available at the time. I expected a call during the day but nothing, will try to get onto him tomorrow morning. I not sure if I should invite him to the meeting on Friday also..

RSPCA, I did think of but no further than that but will chat to them also tomorrow after chatting to the inspector..

I have a plan of attack in mind generated by this thread but will keep an open mind until I had a few chats to the ínspector and RSPCA..

My concern is for my property, the puppies and the neighbours. I intend moving into the property in March next year.. I am a straight up person who tend to go along with the rules and not push the boundaries, for my own self benefit.... I was not raised to tolerate folks who push the boundaries for self benefit and then play the "'I did not know" card.

Will let you all know how I go.... Again, a big thank you..

Seabreeeze