When should I buy? (Maybe it doesn't matter.....)

I was reading this book that talked about time in the market v timing the market. Basically, it said that if you buy regularly (as you would when you contribute x% of your salary a year to your super) for these 4 types of markets, your results would be something like:

1) Falling market 500
2) Fall then rise 1600
3) Rise then fall 1300
4) Rising market 2000

I don't remember the numbers, but the point is that excluding the constantly rising and constantly falling market (unlikely in the long term), it's better to dollar cost average into a market that falls first and then rises, because you get shares at cheaper prices which then catch the bigger upswing. In property we often observe years of low or no growth followed by a boom.

How does this relate to property? My personal assumptions are that the market is cyclical, but has long term positive growth. I also assume that I'll buy regularly. e.g. you buy a property for $300k today, next year after a 5% pay rise you buy one for $315k, and so on. Since long term property prices have risen above wages, it means you buy progressively further and further out (I assume everything has the same long term growth rate).

The point? New investors often ask 'what if the market falls after I buy'? The above theory would say that's a GOOD thing, because you can then buy into the market more cheaply. So you would be accumulating more property during the 'dead' years and then you would get the above average growth.

The 'time in the market' vs 'timing the market' is more relevant when you only ever buy ONCE. If you're the type who goes for 'one PPOR, one IP for retirement' then timing is more important. If you plan on having multiple properties accumulated over years, when you start in the cycle doesn't matter.

There are of course provisos here. I assume that in a dead market you keep buying using savings from wages, which is a big part of my strategy. With a rising market you can refinance.

So the idea is to buy as early as you can. Buy cheap and buy often.
Alex
 
Alex:

each asset class is different, and although in theory the major assets go up in long term, timing is more important in some asset class than the other. For example, it makes a lot more sense to buy and hold properties irrespective of timing (dollar cost average) because the transaction cost of property is huge and timing (to sell) becomes ineffective. Further, properties can be bought below market price (even when the market price at the time is above the trendline) if cleverly negotiated, and instant capital growth can be achieved by renovating, subdividing, etc.

Sharemarket, on the other hand, is a totally different beast. The dollar cost average could be ineffective due to the VOLATILITY of the price and when the price is higher than the average price at the time of transaction you have to accept the price as it is, and have no bargaining power. Therefore, if you happened to pick all the high points when you buy randomly then it could really cost you in terms of opportunity cost. I highly recommend BETTER TRADING by Darryl Guppy on this subject (it's a book about risk management).

By the way, the fund managers will strongly discourage to time the market because it is in their best interest for them to persuade you to just blindly invest in the funds.
 
each asset class is different, and although in theory the major assets go up in long term, timing is more important in some asset class than the other. For example, it makes a lot more sense to buy and hold properties irrespective of timing (dollar cost average) because the transaction cost of property is huge and timing (to sell) becomes ineffective. Further, properties can be bought below market price (even when the market price at the time is above the trendline) if cleverly negotiated, and instant capital growth can be achieved by renovating, subdividing, etc.

And shares can't be purchased below 'true' value? Isn't that what stock picking is all about? I'm not really talking value-adding to properties: just buy and hold. I'm not a trader, though I have experience observing it.

Dollar cost averaging is hardly mentioned with property, precisely because few writers / media suggest buying multiple properties over the long term.

Sharemarket, on the other hand, is a totally different beast. The dollar cost average could be ineffective due to the VOLATILITY of the price and when the price is higher than the average price at the time of transaction you have to accept the price as it is, and has no bargaining power. Therefore, if you happen to randomly buy shares and you picked all the high points then it could really cost you in terms of opportunity cost. I highly recommend BETTER TRADING by Darryl Guppy on this subject (it's a book about risk management).

Yet dollar cost averaging is a sharemarket strategy, no? I'm not exactly talking random buying: I'm talking about putting say 5% of your salary (or whatever) into the market every year. I disagree that dollar cost averaging is ineffective. If anything I think volatility makes dollar cost averaging MORE effective, since it lowers your exposure to the vol by accumulating shares at different prices.

By the way, the fund managers will strongly discourage to time the market because it is in their best interest for them to persuade you to just blindly invest in the funds.

Surely both brokers and fund managers make more money if you keep switching in and out of different shares, indices, etc to try to time the market. Otherwise why do brokers bother giving you new ideas about shares?
Alex
 
Feihong, I think you and I have very different approaches to shares. You view shares with a trading mentality. I go for pure buy and hold. I'm quite happy to buy a blue chip share, turn on the dividend reinvestment plan and just let it sit there for years.

My point with the thread is that you don't HAVE to time the market to be successful. While timing it right may increase your returns, it can also decrease them if you time it wrong. On the other hand, NOT timing can still yield good returns. If you have the interest and aptitude to trade (for property OR shares), you might be successful in that. However, just a boring, buy a property every year sort of strategy can still be great over the long term.
Alex
 
timing the market is either you believe it or you don't.. I was introduced to the investment world through technical analysis, so I guess we come from very different school of thoughts. I started property investment precisely because of cyclic analysis (and also due to the commencement of my fulltime position), but I do not plan to apply technical analysis to exit my position on propertis due to transaction cost. But with shares, I do, because cheaper transaction cost allows me to reduce my exposure to short term/medium term opportunity cost (assuming I am only holding long position).
 
timing the market is either you believe it or you don't.. I was introduced to the investment world through technical analysis, so I guess we come from very different school of thoughts. I started property investment precisely because of cyclic analysis (and also due to the commencement of my fulltime position), but I do not plan to apply technical analysis to exit my position on propertis due to transaction cost. But with shares, I do, because cheaper transaction cost allows me to reduce my exposure to short term/medium term opportunity cost (assuming I am only holding long position).

I believe that by timing the market CORRECTLY, you can increase returns. However, I don't think I can time the market correctly, and returns can be negatively affected if you mess up the timing.

If you're trading, aren't you really limiting yourself by only taking long positions?

I'm also a very lazy investor. Buy and hold appeals to me because I really don't have to think too much about it.
Alex
 
You know, there's a lot of ppl (including forumites here) that use property as a "lazy" buy and hold long term investment while using shares as cashflow vehicle. There is also an added benefit of holding property long term in that you can leverage to max and don't ever get a margin call. It's much harder doing that in shares, so timing inherently becomes important for ppl who want to leverage on shares as well.
 
That's where combining property and shares becomes very powerful. Borrow from your IPs and invest in shares: leveraged share exposure with no margin call because your debt is a mortgage not a margin loan.
Alex
 
That's where combining property and shares becomes very powerful. Borrow from your IPs and invest in shares: leveraged share exposure with no margin call because your debt is a mortgage not a margin loan.
Alex

Again agree on that. Yes, eventually when I build up enough equity from my IPs one of my 'IP' equivalent will be my index fund, and again with that I will only apply cyclic analysis once to time my entry point, and then it'll be set and forget until I retire :)
 
I don't see any mention of debt repayment. not in your plan i take it.

The 'end state' of Rixter's CGA strategy is living off equity, as I understand it. So you have increasing debt but equity that's rising even faster. With that much equity you always have the option of selling and paying down some debt if you want.
Alex
 
Alex,

My chosen CGA strategy is based upon the dollar cost averaging principle.

Ive been working it for a number of years now to great success.

Just a quick question Rixter,

Aren't you at the whim of the banks using your strategy? - you're forever dependent on their valuations and giving you LOC's at reasonable rates on no-doc/lo-doc loan products? Also, would they continue to give you 80% LVR when you stop working? Wouldn't you need to be 'equity lending' at this stage, and isn't this usually done at 60% LVR?

Sorry, it's a bit off topic.
 
Just a quick question Rixter,

Aren't you at the whim of the banks using your strategy? - you're forever dependent on their valuations and giving you LOC's at reasonable rates on no-doc/lo-doc loan products? Also, would they continue to give you 80% LVR when you stop working? Wouldn't you need to be 'equity lending' at this stage, and isn't this usually done at 60% LVR?

Sorry, it's a bit off topic.

You are at the whim of the banks even more so when just starting out with little to no equity behind you and a fixed income ceiling. The bigger your portfolio, the more equity behind you and the greater number of loans across several lenders, actually reduces your risk.

Yes equity lending. Once you have built a sizable portfolio whether you are lending at 60-80 LVR is irrelevant providing you have structured your portfolio & finances accordingly and its providing sufficient funds for your needs .
 
You are at the whim of the banks even more so when just starting out with little to no equity behind you and a fixed income ceiling. The bigger your portfolio, the more equity behind you and the greater number of loans across several lenders, actually reduces your risk.

Yes equity lending. Once you have built a sizable portfolio whether you are lending at 60-80 LVR is irrelevant providing you have structured your portfolio & finances accordingly and its providing sufficient funds for your needs .

Fair enough, that makes sense.
 
For example, if you build your portfolio to, say, 50% LVR (say 5m property, 2.5m loans), then you draw 4% a year (200k tax free) even if you have a couple of lean years your LVR won't creep up too much.
Alex
 
My point with the thread is that you don't HAVE to time the market to be successful

I dont think buying regularly and timing the market are mutually exclusive. Even if you buy regularly (and I intend to over the years as funds allow), there is a degree of timing when deciding where to buy and how much to pay

- if I perceive the market to be hot and making quick gains, I am more likely to try secure a property quickly rather than bargain hard
- if I perceive a suburb is yet to show rapid gains, while those a few km away have performed strongly, I may try and get in before the upswing
- I may avoid buying in a city/suburb that has has strong growth and flattened off (eg Perth). Better to buy in a city/suburb which has stagnanted for some time and (if it follows the law of averages) should outperform soon.

Timing the market does not have to mean sitting on the sidelines waiting for a 50% drop in prices.
 
The problem is, most people who say 'I'll wait for the market to drop before I buy' don't actually have any sort of % or dollar figure in mind as to when they will buy in. If anything, a sharp fall will cause them to stand FURTHER away because they will assume it's going to fall further.
Alex
 
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