Why would anyone buy in the current market?

Hmm..I should think that a broad based statistic would be a consideration before any investment of capital. I mean if it is only a 5% price fall on average this means nothing..what about a 10% fall, should I also dismiss this? Is a 20% fall just statistical noise? Where should I draw the line and actually have some cause for worry under this method of judgement in respect to my capital allocation. If I had a share portfolio fall 5% in value would this be nothing to be concerned about? Why is a property different to other investment classes?:confused:

Yes, even a 20% fall in aussie house prices is statistical noise. Although it woukd certainly be worrying and a sign of an overall trend, it is nowhere near specific enough. You can't buy a house that performs exactly like the broad based state statistic let alone the national one.

You asked why anyone would buy now with no chance of price increases etc, to me that is far too broad a statement. There are plenty of great opportunities out there, they just need to viewed differently during uncertain times imo. I think small value add projects have done very well in perth over the last few years but if you look at the broader market stat you certainly wouldn't see it being the case.
 
Increases in property prices are linked to mortgage debt and the ability for individuals to that service debt. In an environment of falling interest rates and strong wage growth property prices will grow in line with peoples willingness to take on more debt as they can now afford a larger mortgage.*

The question you have to ask yourself is with record low interest rates, property prices that are widely acknowledged as over valued, wage growth stagnant for the most of us, banks applying stricter lending conditions, an uncertain economic environment. Where is the growth going to come from?

So should you buy now? for me it depends, if you can get a property that pays for itself (i.e. strong positive cashflow) and it costs you nothing to hold then why not, if you will be heavily negatively geared and you have large holding costs each year I'd hold off.

I personally don't think people will be rewarded over the next 5-10 years by going strong into negatively geared property, they in my view would be better applying the holding costs to offset their mortgage, salary sacrifice to super, or use to accumulate a deposit for more favourable markets.


* As an example If interest rates were 20% (think early 90's) and you could only afford $30,000 pa in mortgage repayments you could only borrow up to ~$150,000 before you were priced out of the market. If interest rates dropped to 5% you could borrow up to $600,000 before you were priced out of the market. in this example prices will grow because people can simply afford to pay more. However when property prices rise to $600,000 the isn't much room to move upwards without strong wage growth which comes from stronger economic conditions. But that's is also a double edged sword as strong economic conditions generally result in higher interest rates.
 
Yes, even a 20% fall in aussie house prices is statistical noise. Although it woukd certainly be worrying and a sign of an overall trend, it is nowhere near specific enough. You can't buy a house that performs exactly like the broad based state statistic let alone the national one.

Wow..I would think an investor thinking a 20% fall in national values as statistical noise and not specific enough as a sign of the health of the overall economy may need to step back and take a DEEP breath...:eek:

Out of interest, at what sort of level of decline in national values would see you really concerned? :)
 
Prices are down as are rates, the question is do you buy now or wait until it is cheaper still at lower prices and lower rates. Why buy now?

Why not buy now, and buy even more when prices are lower? If someone was willing to give you $1 in return for 80c, would you go for the deal or hope he would later be willing do swap his dollar for 70c?

Not a very accurate example, I know... Maybe I'm trolling? Ignore me, you shouldn't feed the trolls.
 
Why not buy now, and buy even more when prices are lower? If someone was willing to give you $1 in return for 80c, would you go for the deal or hope he would later be willing do swap his dollar for 70c?

Not a very accurate example, I know... Maybe I'm trolling? Ignore me, you shouldn't feed the trolls.

Well for a start...investment should be about return...so if I was to accept the deal at 70c, rather than 80c then I would have made just under an additional 18% ABOVE my return of 25% on the 80c deal. This is a no brainer.....:confused:
 
Well for a start...investment should be about return...so if I was to accept the deal at 70c, rather than 80c then I would have made just under an additional 18% ABOVE my return of 25% on the 80c deal. This is a no brainer.....:confused:

Personally, I'd take the first deal while it was available, and if the hoped for 70c deal also came along, I'd snap it up too.
 
From what I have read BIS are far from an accurate gauge of future market activity. I realise markets differ between states and areas within states but my general question was why buy now if there is a chance of further declines. I'm in QLD and cannot see any real price gains in my area soon (given the economic uncertainty, budget blowout due to lost revenue, forced redundancies, further expected bank rate cuts and banks provisioning for further losses and direct anecdotal evidence of families on struggle street meeting repayments). I have money to invest but do not believe now is the time to step in, hence my original query.:)

Nothing really changes, just part of the cycle, desperate investors selling provide brilliant opportunities for others who are cashed up to pick up some real gems. I like parts of QLD at the moment for exactly this reason.

Cheers, MTR
 
Just my thoughts I think its a great time to buy well postioned property in stable areas. I have never seen conditions like this in my 20 years of investing. Being able to buy in areas that are as safe as can be, and receive rent that covers your loan and associated costs sounds good to me. Sure the capital growth isnt here at the moment but who knows what the future holds. As long as it doesnt cost me money right here right now. I invest in Bendigo at present and I remember when I started out it was all about negative gearing. I bought properties when interest rates were high, rents were ordinary and banks refused me further loans due to servacibilty. At the time property values were stagnant in Bendigo for at least 7 years. Then we had the boom. So yes I think now is the time to buy.

ditto, I am buying in Perth, QLD, Syd and purchased 8 properties in Atlanta 12 months ago which have almost doubled.

Cheers, MTR
 
Hi Guys n Gals,

With the recent (last couple of years) general market declines and near future price rises unlikely (I'm talking about real gains not a 0.2 percentage rise an a month only to see if fall the following month) why would you purchase residential property at the moment? I mean if the market is flat (if not a further slide backward over say the next year or two), why not wait? If all future buyers held off purchasing our already stressed market would be further distressed hence a cheaper entry point for future investors. I'm curious as to why any potential investor would buy now if there is any chance of a further deteriorating market, hence a cheaper entry point. Thanks.:)

Why invest into any asset class then, I presume stocks have fallen too, right? It depends on your strategy, your time frame, your risk, your buffers, etc..... If your strategy in equities was in the accumulation phase for long term, then your dollar cost averaging may be the way to go, if you continue buying the stock even on the way down than you should buy more of it, right? (And I don't mean just any stocks). So why would a IP asset class be different?
Nobody has a crystal ball what will happen to any asset class, and actually gold was the winner for the last 10 years, so if you can pick the bottoms and tops, that's great but for some of us property is, "Time in the market - not timing the market".
For me if I can get an IP that will maintain itself, with OPM, by stacking up my numbers, than a deal is to be made. Why would I wait when the prices are on the increase, when the herd mentality would follow.
Also, your comment mentions property on month on month basis, whereas my interest lies at least 10 years.... Who compares IP assets on monthly basis, unless cash flow is at stake?
It really comes down to knowing what you want, taking the risk, and sticking to your strategy, if you have one, that's all.
I use asset classes for diversification and protection of wealth, so I understand, yes assets will become overvalued and undervalued in time, doesn't matter if they are stocks, IPs, commodities (eg. gold/silver, others), etc... That's all.
So in my case the price of property is not the only factor in my equation, but rather whether the deal will stack up.
Perhaps with numbers its easier to understand. Say you purchase an IP for $500K with 80LVR, that's $400K loan.
Now assuming it's costing you 1/3 to maintain the IP a year, 1/3 by a tenant, and 1/3 by ATO. Then for you to keep this property it would cost you approx. $15K a year ($500K x 0.03). If after some minor renovations, you can slightly increase rent, or interest rates decrease, then you could fix your loans for 10 years and the property could and would maintain itself. In addition rent has increased on all my properties in the last 10 years, so I would expect some, not uniform, rental increases too. All this helps you to maintain your IP.
The question then becomes for your total outlay of $150K (10 years at $15K/yr) what will its value be in 10 years (I hope for some capital growth, at least more than my personal outlay of 20% + 5% costs, and 80% OPM outlay. If it doubles than $500K is now $1mill, or you made $500K for $150K outlay - not all your outlay but OPM - this represents 7% growth/yr. Assuming half, 3.5% growth/yr means doubling in 20 years, or equity grows to $750K only in 10 years, etc... (I use number 70! to derive the figures:confused:).
That's the risk I am willing to take in my investment strategy if the numbers stack up, I hope that helps.
 
Stock brokers don't stop buying shares in a bear market they adjust what they buy.

Farmers don't stop farming in bad weather they adjust what they grow.

Retailers don't stop selling in bad times they adjust what they sell.

Property investors don't stop investing in a down market they adjust what they buy.

This concept seems to baffle people, a fact that baffles me. Its not about being blind about the current environment its about adapting to it and taking advantage.

Some will say but why not jump from "property investing" to "shares" to "trading baseball cards" and so on depending on the market.

My answer....

Stock brokers dont start farming in a bear market they adjust what they buy.

Farmers dont start buying shares in bad weather they adjust what they grow.

.. you get the point.


Hi Guys n Gals,

With the recent (last couple of years) general market declines and near future price rises unlikely (I'm talking about real gains not a 0.2 percentage rise an a month only to see if fall the following month) why would you purchase residential property at the moment? I mean if the market is flat (if not a further slide backward over say the next year or two), why not wait? If all future buyers held off purchasing our already stressed market would be further distressed hence a cheaper entry point for future investors. I'm curious as to why any potential investor would buy now if there is any chance of a further deteriorating market, hence a cheaper entry point. Thanks.:)
 
Stock brokers don't stop buying shares in a bear market they adjust what they buy.

Farmers don't stop farming in bad weather they adjust what they grow.

Retailers don't stop selling in bad times they adjust what they sell.

Property investors don't stop investing in a down market they adjust what they buy.

This concept seems to baffle people, a fact that baffles me. Its not about being blind about the current environment its about adapting to it and taking advantage.

Some will say but why not jump from "property investing" to "shares" to "trading baseball cards" and so on depending on the market.

My answer....

Stock brokers dont start farming in a bear market they adjust what they buy.

Farmers dont start buying shares in bad weather they adjust what they grow.

.. you get the point.

I agree.

The more investing experience I get the more I believe the best time to buy into an asset class is when it is in the bear market.

You might not pick the bottom but if you are fairly certain, it is a quality asset and should be worth a lot more in 10-15 years time and the numbers are attractive enough then there is no point in holding back.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
Stock brokers don't stop buying shares in a bear market they adjust what they buy.

Farmers don't stop farming in bad weather they adjust what they grow.

Retailers don't stop selling in bad times they adjust what they sell.

Property investors don't stop investing in a down market they adjust what they buy.

This concept seems to baffle people, a fact that baffles me. Its not about being blind about the current environment its about adapting to it and taking advantage.

Some will say but why not jump from "property investing" to "shares" to "trading baseball cards" and so on depending on the market.

My answer....

Stock brokers dont start farming in a bear market they adjust what they buy.

Farmers dont start buying shares in bad weather they adjust what they grow.

.. you get the point.
I must say I really like your answer to this initial thread. So straight forward yet so powerful....thanks.:)
 
From what I have read BIS are far from an accurate gauge of future market activity. I realise markets differ between states and areas within states but my general question was why buy now if there is a chance of further declines. I'm in QLD and cannot see any real price gains in my area soon (given the economic uncertainty, budget blowout due to lost revenue, forced redundancies, further expected bank rate cuts and banks provisioning for further losses and direct anecdotal evidence of families on struggle street meeting repayments). I have money to invest but do not believe now is the time to step in, hence my original query.:)

Then don't.
 
Back
Top