Would you buy in Ringwood (Vic)?

I' thinking of buying (an IP) in Rinwood - probably in Mid 2008 but I've got some concerns re: supply and demand.

For those who don't know Ringwood:

Ringwood is an outer Eastern suburb on Melbourne. It's a longstanding location which was there well before suburban sprawl reached (and then washed over) it. Its mainly Anglosaxon. Its a pretty varied suburb in terms of age nursing homes to primary schools. Socioeconomic status is poor to middleclass (council houses to professionals commuting to the city to bluecollar workers). It has a major shopping centre (Eastland), railway station, and bus transport. In 2008 the Eastlink Freeway will also connect it to other major freeways. The Eastlink is expected to pull alot of industrial activity to the East due to cheaper industrial land.

Most houses are 1980's or older. There are a few olderstyle multiunit developments. Ringwood is marked as one of the urban centres in the Melbourne 2030 vision. Its is expected that population will increase by 30,000 (I think). Permits will be given for development once Eastlink is open - medium density multistorey type development.

There seems to be alot of factors which would make Ringwood more desirable. On the flipside I'm worried that Southbank / Docklands style development will make the whole rental market in Ringwood crash. I've got no idea how to weigh up the supply and demand equation.

Can anyone shed some light or wisdom?
 
A few observations:
1. gazillion km from CBD / Transport Zone 2/3
2. relative non-scarcity of land
3. Rental yield generally good compared to inner city
4. Doubt you'll get a Docklands style disaster - seeing what has (or more accurately has NOT) happened in Doncaster.

Cheers,

The Y-man
 
Hi Dis

Mid 2008 is a long way off - more than two years away - instead of thinking 'Investment property in Ringwood' why not keep an open mind for the next two years?

I have property in Ringwood, never been empty, lets from the board. We also have property in Croydon and Kilsyth, also great for rentals - and good capital growth so far. First house bought 1994 $105,000 now worth around $300,000, also never been empty.

Y-man, I appreciate that the CBD is considered the epicentre of all things financial, but believe me not everybody works in or is focussed on Melbourne.

Those of us in the foothills do have jobs and businesses and would rather have a little more property / pay a little less than if we lived to the west of Union Road.

In fact, many of us prefer the lifestyle 'out here' to the congested inner suburbs.

Dis, there are as many opinions as there are grains of sand on the beach. At the end of the day, the only property of any benefit to you is the one with your name on it. If you are taking the long term planning view of two years to prepare yourself, and intend to ultimately pass this property on to your children, then whether you buy in Ringwood or Rowville of Rosanna it won't really matter all that much.

What will matter is your intention regarding management and maintenance.

If you are wanting to at least get into the property for maintenance and upgrades between tenants over a long period of time, then something within sensible travelling distance of where you live or intend to live will be of considerable importance as the years go by.

For example, No: 2 Son has just moved into his first purchase at Kilsyth this week. The tenants must have lived on pizza for six months and also closed the fridge when they left, so baked on charcoal in the oven and mildew in the fridge.

The property is only 15 minutes away which makes moving household stuff easy, plus I am going over now to 'help" (read: I'm doing it!) with the cleaning.

We are also close enough that he will be able to eat with us then go home to bed while he is living there.

If he had bought in Brunswick the lifestyle opportunities for these simple arrangements would have been a lot more complicated.

I am very pleased with my property in Ringwood, and my (professional) tenant is now into her third year and very happy with the place.

Happy hunting

Kristine
 
Hiya,

A few thoughts...

First of all, Ringwood is roughly around 30km from the CBD. Gazillions of miles for some; a 40min train ride for others. I hear the freeway extention will make it quicker to drive than take the train.

It is zone 3, but one station away from (Heatherdale) zone 2. This is handy to know when you are choosing where to park :D

Rental yeilds are currently around 4.5 - 5%, depending on how well you buy. There is not a lot of difference in yield between houses and units.

There is a small pocket of Ringwood that I know well, which is within a 10 minute walk to Eastland, the train station / bus depot, Aquinas College and the local swimming hole.

The nightlife is quickly growing a better reputation, too, as Knox is getting worse. (Or so I'm told ;) )

It is an older area, as a general rule, with a lot of older houses.

If you are correct and there is likely to be an abundance of approvals in a few years for development... would it not make sense to own some of this potential before it happens?

Land scarcity is not abundant (compared with say, Seville, Cockatoo or some other rural area on the outer fringes of Melbourne). In order to create more land in Ringwood, buildings need to be knocked down.

I may / may not have more thoughts on this later... this is what comes to mind at first glance.

Good luck

James.
 
Buy in Ringwood? Sure, I would. Not right now though as I think it will be a few years before any capital growth, lets say 2009 or so. Also, I would only buy a non-new house on a decent block of land, say at least 70% land value.
 
Kristine.. said:
No: 2 Son has just moved into his first purchase at Kilsyth this week. The property is only 15 minutes away which makes moving household stuff easy, plus I am going over now to 'help" (read: I'm doing it!) with the cleaning. We are also close enough that he will be able to eat with us then go home to bed while he is living there.

If he had bought in Brunswick the lifestyle opportunities for these simple arrangements would have been a lot more complicated.
Kristine

Congratulations to your son Kristine on his 1st PPOR. Please don't take this the wrong way but in the long term i think your son would benefit if his mum didn't do too much for him (like cleaning, cooking etc). As a young man he must be very proud to have his own home which also comes with the independence and getting away from the folks. As a mother i would only be cooking for him maybe once-twice a week for a few months and then encourage him to start doing his own.

In my opinion, if he had bought in Brunswick, he'd have a better lifestyle in terms of places to dine and places to see and go to... (Brunswick St, Sydney Rd, Lygon St, CBD etc. as well as better cap gains - plus mum wouldn't always be coming over so often :p )
 
Hello Mary

Thank you for the congratulations but did I say I would be cooking for him? I don't 'do' cooking. Cleaning out the oven and washing the mildew from the fridge is not exactly molly coddling, and as the bathroom needs renovation and the whole place is to be repainted including all the doors and skirtings (previous owner painted acrylic over oil!) I am very glad that I can get there, work, and get home without a third or more of the time being spent on the road.

Buy in Brunswick? What can you buy for $165,000 in Brunswick? Please keep in mind he saved the deposit while earning 40% of the adult wage.

He is still only 18 & 8 months and his tastes do not extend to fine dining.

While we were there today we walked around the corner to his second purchase to meet the agent while she did the condition report, as the tenant has moved out at the end of the lease. The place was immaculate, so we walked back again then went off to pick up some furniture.

It will be entirely up to him if, at the end of a twelve hour day, he wants to swing past us on the way to Kilsyth, eat whatever there is for tea, leave his laundry on the floor, and continue on his way.

Each family, like each property, is different. He has been a great short order cook for some years now, and can rustle up a tasty meal for his friends with ease and experience.

By coincidence, the agent had just done the periodic inspection of my Ringwood house this afternoon. 'Oh', she said 'As soon as I walked in the door I thought "I wouldn't mind living here!"'

Apparently Ms Tenant is just delighted with the place, the garden is blooming (well, I did plant 19 standard roses with a lavender border at the front and lemon, lime, apple, herbs, passion fruit etc in the courtyard).

Happy to buy more in Ringwood, Kilsyth, Croydon, Wonga Park, Chirnside Park.

I really don't think that Brunswick has more to offer, although having said that I would be quite happy to have some Brunswick in the portfolio.

But given that I could buy two here for one there I think I'll settle with the outer east and foothills area for a while yet.

Cheers

Kristine
 
Kristine.. said:
Hello Mary

Thank you for the congratulations but did I say I would be cooking for him? I don't 'do' cooking.

Hi Kristine, in your previous post you mentioned that "We are also close enough that he will be able to eat with us then go home to bed while he is living there." I guess that's where i got the idea that he'd be eating dinner at your house before going home to his own... maybe i'm confused?


Kristine.. said:
Buy in Brunswick? What can you buy for $165,000 in Brunswick? Please keep in mind he saved the deposit while earning 40% of the adult wage.

I think you were the first to mention Brunswick... i was just following your lead. You also never mentioned $165k in your previous post, but i agree it would be difficult to buy a house there for that amount.

Kristine.. said:
He is still only 18 & 8 months and his tastes do not extend to fine dining.

Hehe, there's a LOT of cheap and healthy eats in the area for under $10 such as the delicious Turkish food at Alasya's, the tender lasagne ($8) at Ti Amo's in Lygon St and also worth venturing into Victoria St, Richmond for some great $7 Vietnamese Pho soup.

Kristine.. said:
It will be entirely up to him if, at the end of a twelve hour day, he wants to swing past us on the way to Kilsyth, eat whatever there is for tea, leave his laundry on the floor, and continue on his way.

I agree, and i'm sure he does too... although i wouldn't encourage this behaviour as it leads to a co-dependant relationship which is unhealthy.

Kristine.. said:
Each family, like each property, is different. He has been a great short order cook for some years now, and can rustle up a tasty meal for his friends with ease and experience.

Excellent!

Kristine.. said:
Happy to buy more in Ringwood, Kilsyth, Croydon, Wonga Park, Chirnside Park.
I really don't think that Brunswick has more to offer, although having said that I would be quite happy to have some Brunswick in the portfolio.

I think you were the one that mentioned Brunswick. If you check the stats i think you'll find this area has had greater growth per annum on average than the areas you mentioned. I guess it all comes back to proximity to the CBD, schools, shops, restaurants, trams, trains, buses, period homes, gentrification, Melbourne uni etc.
 
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Mary said:
I think you were the one that mentioned Brunswick. If you check the stats i think you'll find this area has had greater growth per annum on average than the areas you mentioned.

Sure you're not a clone of Monique Wakelin (who neglects to disclose that her strategies are unsuitable for anyone wishing to buy three or more IPs and/or are on an average income or less) ?

If you can buy two subdividable IPs in Ringwood for the price of a non-subdividable one in Brunswick then a tiny terrace in Brunswick may not necessarily be an ideal choice. Especially when the choice is between acting now or waiting 5 years until you can afford Brunswick.

I guess it all comes back to proximity to the CBD, schools, shops, restaurants, trams, trains, buses, period homes, gentrification, Melbourne uni etc.

Granted, Brunswick is better as regards to proximity to restaurants, gentrification, trams, Mebourne Uni, etc.

I didn't understand your comments about Brunswick buses; with the possible exception of Route 508, they are nothing to write home about. Admittedly Ringwood's aren't much good either at the moment. But a new orbital bus route linking Frankston, Knox, Ringwood and Doncaster is proposed, so this is in Ringwood's favour.

As for trains, Brunswickites enjoy a much shorter trip home than do Ringwoodians. However whereas Brunswick gets only one train every 20 minutes and no express services, Ringwood residents get plenty of express trains and more frequent services. The difference between a tram ride to Brunswick and an express train to Ringwood might be less than one might think. As far as I know Brunswick has no new transport projects planned, whereas Ringwood has the aforementioned 'SmartBus' and Eastlink.

I'm not saying that Ringwood will grow faster than Brunswick long-term, as the latter has many benefits. However if the budget is limited, one purchase in Ringwood will surely beat doing nothing. Two purchases in the likes of Ringwood might even equal one in Brunswick. This is especially if you value control over your IP and want something free-standing without bodies corporate, etc.

Peter
 
Hello Mary

Sorry, I didn't mean to 'bristle' so if my reply appeared to be 'bristly' then I most sincerely apologise.

Yes, I alluded to 'Brunswick' as a generic 'close to the CBD' suburb as distinct from Ringwood, which some would think is an 'outer eastern' suburb. I wasn't necessarily meaning Brunswick itself.

Dis asked about buying in Ringwood. Essentially, rather than compare Ringwood to the inner suburbs - whether that be Footscray, Elwood or Brunswick, I compared Ringwood with suburbs a little further out but in the same corridor.

I also suggested considering access to the property for future maintenance work, or even self-management.

To my way of thinking, if Dis bought in Hobart then he / she wouldn't be thinking about access and would expect to be paying someone to do everything involved with the property, whether that be letting, management, mowing grass, changing lightbulbs or painting.

By choosing to 'nest' our properties we have reasonable access to do a lot of the work ourselves. This in and of itself is no reason to buy a property, but in our experience of this area the capital growth has been reasonable to good and yes, of course, if we had the pockets to buy in Hawthorn or Toorak or other blue chip areas then perhaps the capital growth would have been stronger.

We primarily look at having a mix of property, and so far have not been disappointed with either rental return or capital growth, and the Internal Rate of Return has been excellent.

For example, Daughter bought her first place in Kilsyth three years ago, paying $136,000 and using $4,000 of her own money and receiving the previous $7,000 FHOG. Yes, she and I renovated somewhat extensively which cost about $15,000 including new windows, a new kitchen, upgraded the bathroom, a full internal repaint, new carpet downstairs, a complete electrical overhaul including new circuits, cover plates, switches, light fittings etc. and a garden makeover to the courtyard. In one month, and working 14 hour days.

She has paid me back from her other earnings so her investment in this property - which has now been rented for $185 per week for eighteen months - was a total of $19,000. The property has improved to about $185,000 market value.

So her $19,000 has earned her another $30,000 in three years.

But most importantly, she was earning $13,000 per annum when she bought it, with $4,000 deposit.

There have been many threads on what to buy and where to buy, and Dis is obviously planning ahead with a two year time frame. No: 2 Son also planned ahead, but couldn't buy until he turned 18. He signed the Contract on his Birthday.

Ringwood is still largely affordable, that is, how many weeks / years pay to buy the property. It is an area which had many defence houses built in the late 1940s and early 1950s and many of the original occupants still own and live in the houses. My next door neighbour there moved into the house which was built new for her and her husband, she was 19 at the time.

These properties tend to be on full size blocks of land, generally around the 850 square metres, and the infrastructure is excellent. Schools, recreation facilities, public transport, shopping.

You can catch a bus at Ringwood Station and go to Warburton for a cup of tea if you like! My neighbour actually does this, she never learned to drive and enjoys the outing. The bus stop is 50 metres from her door.

As a stable, lower middle class area, Ringwood is hard to beat. I would suggest that lower capital growth reflects the stability of the market, and the generic nature of the properties. As properties come up for sale and are bought and modernised, so too will capital growth rates increase.

Capital growth comes from not just what we as individuals do, but what the whole area does. Massive injections of capital, such as those involved with the By-Pass, encourage more investment projects and once the 'lift' starts in an area the neighbourhood becomes more attractive, vendors achieve higher prices and so it goes on.

Eastland has grown over the years, not just once but a number of times, and now that Maroondah Council has decided to re-zone to encourage apartments and other styles of medium to high density living, in a specific area fringing Eastland, many more people will be attracted to the area.

However, it should be kept in mind that this high density area is very tight and permission for one development does not imply permission for all developments. We shall not see a return to the cubic blocks of flats on stilts so beloved in the 1960s. For a start, each tenement must be able to provide for two off street vehicle spaces, so a building containing 20 apartments must be able to provide at least 40 car park spaces. This rule applies even for studio or one bedroom apartments, and this economic factor alone would limit the temptation to randomly build flats or apartments.

There are some very nice, and some very ordinary, units and flats in Ringwood. There are also some quite extraordinary properties which anyone would be pleased to live in.

If Dis is looking at buying a separate dwelling, that is, a family home, there is plenty to choose from. If Dis is looking at buying a flat, apartment, townhouse or unit, there is now also the choice of buying 'off the plan' with settlement probably about two years away.

Ringwood has long awaited the By-Pass. The years of lobbying for the preservation of the Mullum Creek reserve have finally paid off and the ribbon parklands will remain for posterity.

The City of Maroondah is a good place to live and to raise a family. We have always experienced strong rental demand and have been pleased with the calibre of our tenants (with a few exceptions) and the rent they have been prepared to pay.

In speaking of my personal experience I do not seek to contradict anyone else's experiences or to make any point except that 'this is our experience'.

There are many areas around Melbourne I would fancy to live in - Sandringham so I could walk to the beach, Docklands so I could sit on the balcony and admire the view, West Melbourne, Carlton, St Kilda, Elwood, Camberwell, Maribyrnong, there is beauty and 'buzz' anywhere, and no area is 'better' or 'worse' than another, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

But this thread is about Ringwood, and I would be more than happy to own twenty properties in Ringwood, or Croydon, or Kilsyth. I am sure that they would keep me fed into an advanced old age.

And as both No: 1 and No: 2 Sons have promised to drive me to Bingo in return for all the planning, plotting, support, encouragement, help and nagging I have given them thus far, I may as well live close enough to them so that they can easily just call by to pick me up!

Dis, Ringwood has something for everyone. Good luck with your search and enjoy the next two years

Cheers

Kristine
 
Hi Kristine,

How does Ringwood compare with Kilsyth and Croydon - or Bayswater, Boronia and FTGully for that matter - should people like Dis look at the broader area in general, or concentrate as per original message on Ringwood proper?

On paper at least, median price growth figs from VG's office to 2005 looks like (all figures eqvt % pa compounding):

Kilsyth 8.6%
FTGully 8.8%
Boronia: 9.0%
Croydon:9.0%
Ringwood:9.1%
Bayswater: 9.3%
Ringwood East 9.7%

(ok, Mary, Brunswick 11.4% ;) )


Cheers,

The Y-man
 
Spiderman said:
Sure you're not a clone of Monique Wakelin (who neglects to disclose that her strategies are unsuitable for anyone wishing to buy three or more IPs and/or are on an average income or less) ?

Hi Peter, no i'm not a clone of Monique Wakelin. My clone is writing this post now. I've read some of Monique's strategies and thought they were very similar to Jan Somers way of thinking: purchase IP's in average to good areas close to infrastructure and use the cap gains to leapfrog onto the next one... but i could be mistaken.

Spiderman said:
I didn't understand your comments about Brunswick buses; with the possible exception of Route 508, they are nothing to write home about. Admittedly Ringwood's aren't much good either at the moment. But a new orbital bus route linking Frankston, Knox, Ringwood and Doncaster is proposed, so this is in Ringwood's favour.

I guess i was eluding to the fact that Brunswick has a great public transport system, namely the tram lines running up Sydney Rd and LygonSt / Nicholson St. I'm not familiar with the bus routes, particularly the 508.
 
Hi Kristine, thanks for clearing that up but i didn't find it too 'bristly' :)

From reading your posts, it's very clear that you are well versed in selecting IP's and know your area well. Being local has a lot of advantages when looking for property, especially being able to judge what is fair value and also the maintaining / renovating side of it.

Congratulations on the success of your children. They sound like hard working kids who have the advantage of having a fantastic mum who encourages, supports and mentors them. :)
 
Thankyou to everyone who took the time and effort to reply to this. Your points of view were most helpful.

Kristine,

I'm buying in the "foothills" for many of the practicle reasons you mentioned - namely proximity and accessibility. I singled out Ringwood because of the infrastructure injection, but I'm happy to buy "the right property" anywhere in the region.

Its good to know you have had strong stable rental demand and decent tenants. Being the local expert, do you have a PM you could recommend? Also have you found anything that is strongly desirable to tenantsin this particular region?
- LU garage vs carport
- quality of kitchen
- will pay more for renovated property vs rather keep their money and live in an older looking house

Your insights into the local market have helped heaps already!

Thanks,

~Dis
 
Hello Dis

I have used Methven Croydon 03 9725 6666 since 1994, always found them to be very conscientious and reliable.

This is an interesting twist to a tale:

http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bi...f=70&p=10&t=res&ty=&snf=&ag=&cu=&fmt=&header=

As a Buyer's Agent I inspected this property on Friday, 9th March, 2001 - I still have the report on file.

It was then on the market for $139,950 and was a bit shabby.

According to the advertisement, it now has a new kitchen, ducted heating, is in 'immaculate' condition etc. Asking $229,950.

I really liked this townhouse, great aspect towards the Painted Hills ridge line. Trouble is, can't lever anyone in the family into it right at the moment, more's the pity.

Some properties just linger in the mind ....

Regarding your list of What Do Tenants Want? we have never found anything to be a problem - I even have the Bomb Site rented out at the moment, complete with three families of possums. The tenants enquired from the board, so had a good chance to inspect the property before ringing Methvens.

Otherwise, we just make sure the place is as good as we can get it, whatever the base point is. You can do upgrades inbetween tenants over the years, which is what I have done with the mission brown single bowl sink house out along the Brushy Park road. Never been empty, and neither has anything else for more than it takes to clean up, show, let, and move in.

The one main thing which we try and buy, is an enclosed private yard or courtyard. Somewhere private to sit at the end of the day. The property may only have off-street parking, but if it's got a private courtyard people can leave their washing on the line and a couple of chairs outside and not worry about them. And heating, always make sure you upgrade the heating even if it's only to install panel radiators on the walls - in every room. It can get cold in them thar hills!

Every area has different criteria. We have now had almost every socio economic type of tenant and it comes down more to their attitude to life than to their earning capacity as to how they will treat the place, and how they will behave towards the neighbours.

You will get to be quite the expert over the next two years

Cheers

Kristine
 
Hiya,

A few more thoughts...

First of all, Kristine, it is good to hear that someone has actually had a positive experience with Methvens. I, for one, would not recommend them above any other firm in the area, based on my experience and the many, many stories I have heard from clients and friends. This applies equally to sales and property management.

(There is in fact a saying in the real estate industry in this neck of the woods; "Buy through Methvens, sell through us" - 'us', of course, varies depending on who you are speaking to.)

To be fair - and honest - I would not recommend either agency that I have worked for either, especially as property managers. (Stockies in Croydon, First National in Ferntree Gully)

Ray White in Mt Evelyn are favourites of mine (for both sales and management), however they may not travel quite as far as Ringwood. Barry Plant in Boronia fit into the same catergory.



As far as features of a property rate with tenants; this depends on the type of tenant you are looking to attract.

If you are looking for an executive couple, they are not likely to want to rent a shack with half a carport and a massive grassy lawn that needs mowing twice weekly.

If you want to rent to your traditional 'aussie battler' on the other hand, then they may not be as impressed by a small well-manicured yard.

Nearly everyone likes a double garage, but, it's not essential to most.

I would like to be so bold as suggest that you could establish exactly the type and quality of tenant that you are after, and work backwards from there; what does this person / family want in a home?

Talk to the local property managers, too; they may be able to help you out here with what is popular, and what is not. It may also give you a good idea of who is cooperative, and, who is not.

Good luck!

James.
 
Thoughts on reno in Ringwood - more questions...

Just as I was about to post a new thread on whether I should buy in Ringwood, this post came into my sight. I thank all, the "local queen" Kristine in particular, for the valueable information and would love to present my input as well.

The main reason I like Ringwood, apart from having a good range of local amenities and schools and the new infrastructure being implemented in its proximity as Dis has pointed out, is its affordability for myself (to buy and service at the moment) and my future buyers. With the kind of money I have I could do a bit of Reno in Ringwood on a shabby house on a big block of land. But in inner east suburbs I can only afford a house/townhouse on a subdivided land - if I'm lucky.

As a regular forumite (though only a frequent reader for most of the time...) I would also want to do some reno on the property I buy, applying the techniques I learnt to earn a bit of extra $$ which will surely give me a confidence boost and send me further on the way of Property investment - and Ringwood surely lets me do so.

Then the question comes: If my bold guess is correct, a reno done to a house in a more expensive suburb would create more add-on value than one that cost the same in a cheaper suburb. (?? comment invited ??) If that's the case, buying and renovating in Ringwood (replace name with other "cheaper" suburbs) would not be as worthwhile/cost-effective than doing so in a more "premium" suburb such as brunswick, hawthorn, box hill, blackburn...etc.? If that's the case, and I DO HAVE TO buy in Ringwood because I can't afford to buy anywhere more "premium", would i be better off buying a renovated one and just sit on it and wait till it apprciate? (ie. forget about reno in Ringwood?)

And what about developing, ie. build 2 houses on a sub-divided land? (btw, land is substantially cheaper in Ringwood, as you can expect)

Looking forward eagerly for any wild thoughts and criticisms:D :D
 
Hi Kristine,

How does Ringwood compare with Kilsyth and Croydon - or Bayswater, Boronia and FTGully for that matter - should people like Dis look at the broader area in general, or concentrate as per original message on Ringwood proper?

On paper at least, median price growth figs from VG's office to 2005 looks like (all figures eqvt % pa compounding):

Kilsyth 8.6%
FTGully 8.8%
Boronia: 9.0%
Croydon:9.0%
Ringwood:9.1%
Bayswater: 9.3%
Ringwood East 9.7%

(ok, Mary, Brunswick 11.4% ;) )


Cheers,

The Y-man

where do i find this info??
 
I wonder how Dis has got along since first posting this thread on 3rd February, 2006?

How is the preparation coming along, Dis, or have you actually bought something in the past twelve months?

These bookmarks are very interesting and give a good indication of how people's plans can be turned in to action.

Looking forward to hearing your news

Regards

Kristine
 
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