11% too much for PM?

i pay 6% - although i do have several properties thru this pm - plus $3/mth postage and printing ... letting fee of 1 week rent + advertising ... and if i ever had a tribunal case then it costs $29 extra for her to attended. all inspections, maintenance organisation, paying of rates etc are all inclusive.

i do know pm's in my area who advertise for a low set fee - but forget to mention in the ad that they then charge you thru the nose for the extra's like tribunal, inspections, maintenance and letting until you sign up.

lizzie
 
PM Fees

What are your fee's around Oz ?

Just received a new, ?Authority to Act as Managing Agent? from one of my PM?s. It?s been 1 yr now.

Fees are increasing, markedly in some cases.

Letting fee-
From 8.5% to 9.35%

Fixed letting fee for each new tenant-
From N/A to 2 weeks rent +GST (less 1 week if paid by tenant)

Management fee-
From 8.5% to 9.35%

Property condition report-
From $60 to $80

Final bond inspection-
From $38.50 to $65

Inventory reports-
From Nil to ?by negotiation?

Routine inspections-
From $38.50 to $45

Court Attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr

Postage and Petties-
From $5.50 p/mth to $5.50 p/mth (same)

Meeting attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr

Advertising-
From ?as applicable? (?) to $60 p/wk max when letting IP

*What do you think of these fees ?

Just an Update..

I took a Forum members advice last time (about a year ago) and told them I was happy with the current arrangement unless they wanted to terminate the contract.

I pointed out that I needed the 28 days notice as per the agreement if that was the case.

Monday I received this years letter stating ‘we are updating our “Instructions to act as Managing Agent Authorities” and enclose herewith a new authority for your signature.’

Period of Agency is indicated from 1-07-05 to 1-07-07; which doesn’t perturb me too much, a cursory check of the agreement indicates the prices are as the increases they tried beforeand aslisted above...

I’ll probably remind them we are increasing the rent $15 per week so they benefit there; other than that I’m happy with the original agreement.

Interestingly some months back when we let IP 3 I was surprised how negotiable that PM was, as I dropped all pricing on the contract prepared to negotiate up..but they accepted the lower prices i'd inserted..



REDWING
(IP's in Perth WA)
 
redwing said:
What are your fee's around Oz ?

Just received a new, ?Authority to Act as Managing Agent? from one of my PM?s. It?s been 1 yr now.

Fees are increasing, markedly in some cases.

Letting fee-
From 8.5% to 9.35%

Fixed letting fee for each new tenant-
From N/A to 2 weeks rent +GST (less 1 week if paid by tenant)

Management fee-
From 8.5% to 9.35%

Property condition report-
From $60 to $80

Final bond inspection-
From $38.50 to $65

Inventory reports-
From Nil to ?by negotiation?

Routine inspections-
From $38.50 to $45

Court Attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr

Postage and Petties-
From $5.50 p/mth to $5.50 p/mth (same)

Meeting attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr

Advertising-
From ?as applicable? (?) to $60 p/wk max when letting IP

*What do you think of these fees ?

Just an Update..

I took a Forum members advice last time (about a year ago) and told them I was happy with the current arrangement unless they wanted to terminate the contract.

I pointed out that I needed the 28 days notice as per the agreement if that was the case.

Monday I received this years letter stating ‘we are updating our “Instructions to act as Managing Agent Authorities” and enclose herewith a new authority for your signature.’

Period of Agency is indicated from 1-07-05 to 1-07-07; which doesn’t perturb me too much, a cursory check of the agreement indicates the prices are as the increases they tried beforeand aslisted above...

I’ll probably remind them we are increasing the rent $15 per week so they benefit there; other than that I’m happy with the original agreement.

Interestingly some months back when we let IP 3 I was surprised how negotiable that PM was, as I dropped all pricing on the contract prepared to negotiate up..but they accepted the lower prices i'd inserted..



REDWING
(IP's in Perth WA)
I just got a new authority from one of my PM's too. They said they were updating information for their office (no mention of raised fees). I phoned them & spoke to the head PM who said "Oh they must have made a mistake. Just change the fees to what your original form said, initial changes & then sign it & send back." Easy.
 
redwing said:
What are your fee's around Oz ?


Fees are increasing, markedly in some cases.

Letting fee-
From 8.5% to 9.35%

Fixed letting fee for each new tenant-
From N/A to 2 weeks rent +GST (less 1 week if paid by tenant)

Management fee-
From 8.5% to 9.35%

Property condition report-
From $60 to $80

Final bond inspection-
From $38.50 to $65

Inventory reports-
From Nil to ?by negotiation?

Routine inspections-
From $38.50 to $45

Court Attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr

Postage and Petties-
From $5.50 p/mth to $5.50 p/mth (same)

Meeting attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr

Advertising-
From ?as applicable? (?) to $60 p/wk max when letting IP

I get SO annoyed at schedules of fees like this..

To have the gall to collect 8-10% of rent and call it a "Management Fee" and then to proceed to add on all manner of fees and charges for things that look suspiciously like umm "management" activities boils my blood.

All of these additional fees have insidiously crept in over recent years despite huge advances in Software and Electronic Banking that offer professional PM's massive productivity savings.

The cost is HUGE and it is NOT commensurate with the effort being expended by these companies in managing your properties.
 
I have to agree with Duncan here, those fees are ridiculous! A management fee is just that; a management fee, which should include all services.

My property managers tried the same thing, and I had a whinge to them, told them the facts of life and property management and they just left things the way they were.

Absolutely no way would I accept paying additional fees for incoming or outgoing condition reports, routine inspections or court attendance! It's all part of the service, otherwise what else is the management fee for?

Your name isn't Santa Clause, and neither is mine. :)
 
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You know it is simply amazing the amount of extra fees some agencies charge. Redwing, is this property in WA as I believe it is standard to charge over the top fees in WA. My favorite PM only charges me 6.6% with NO extras for ANYTHING.
 
Wa

Yes this property is in WA..

And 8.5% M Fee is cheap, most are charging 9.35% now "PLUS" the additional costs as described.

I believe NT is harsh as well..

REDWING
 
Duncan

Good post (as usual).

Some REA's get greedy (and lazy).

Wherever possible I do not negotiate with traders or service providers who set out to take advantage of me. I simply take my business elsewhere and suggest that others do the same.

Why negotiate with a crook, if the trader's ethics are suspect from the outset, there is little hope of improvement. A leopard doesn't change its spots so easily.....

The traders I really dislike are those we have given repeat business to and they then take the opportunity to take advantage. It's as though they figure you're making good money and would like to have a greater share of it. :(

LPlate
 
Not much chance of taking the business elsewhere as costs are 'pretty much' the same; you can of course negotiate and having more than 1 IP helps, but is 6 to 1;half dozen to the other as to who gets you money other than Self Managing...

WA PM is expensive and you dont get much bang for your buck..I had a PM try to charge me $2.50 per photo for inspections..i explained the marvels of digital cameras to her..


REDWING
 
Merely mine humble opinion, but some fees I feel are reasonable, provided the management fee is also reasonable.

Property condition report-
From $60 to $80

The importance of this document is often overlooked until it is challenged in a Tribunal by a tenant or by a property owner, so it must be accurate and contain sufficient description. This is time consuming, and I believe worth an hourly rate of $40 -$50 which would allow variance for smaller or larger or more complicated properties or issues. A PM will expose themselves, the REA or their property owner to liability and / or expense by not properly completing a condition report. Are there still PM's out there without a camera?

Final bond inspection-
From $38.50 to $65
This is a condition report, same as above, how can they charge for both without double dipping ?

Inventory reports-
From Nil to ?by negotiation?
Same as above - part of the condition report.

Routine inspections-
From $38.50 to $45
This is a PM's licence to print money. For this level of fee, I'd expect a full condition report with photos emailed to me, nothing less. Otherwise, it's excessive. Max $10. In most cases, provided the PM knows the property as they should, it's a 10-15 min job.

Court Attendances-
From Nil to $99 p/hr
Assuming this means Tribunal - I don't believe there should be any fee.
This is a reap what you sow thing for PM's.
If the PM :
A. accepts cheap and nasty properties onto the rent roll, then expect tribunal time, so factor the cost into the management fee, say 10% min ;
B. approves risky tenants into good properties contrary to PO's guidelines, expect tribunal time, landlord should not pay for this (nor for the re-let fees.)

Meeting attendances ? Depends on who and why really.
e.g. If the PO or the tenant asks for a meeting with the PM, a charge would be unlikely. So it's difficult to clarify chargeable "meeting attendances" .

Just a few of my thoughts from my former PM perspective.
cheers
crest133
 
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The Crest

Thanks The Crest,

I've seen PM's in WA try and*double-dip* by charging a Final bond inspection for a vacating tenant and a Property Condition Report for an incoming tenant at the same time..when asked to produce both reports only one could be produced..suffice to say we ended our friendship.. :mad:

I believe PM's are getting more flexible as they try to retain business, but when fees are all pretty much standard you're looking more for a quality PM than lowest fees IMHO.

Maybe an Oppurunity for someone to start a great PM business in WA after all it's the rent roll that is an agencies worth isn't it..

hmmm..There's some agencies for sale too... ;)

REDWING
 
redwing said:
Thanks The Crest,

I've seen PM's in WA try and*double-dip* by charging a Final bond inspection for a vacating tenant and a Property Condition Report for an incoming tenant at the same time..when asked to produce both reports only one could be produced..suffice to say we ended our friendship.. :mad:

I believe PM's are getting more flexible as they try to retain business, but when fees are all pretty much standard you're looking more for a quality PM than lowest fees IMHO.

Maybe an Oppurunity for someone to start a great PM business in WA after all it's the rent roll that is an agencies worth isn't it..

hmmm..There's some agencies for sale too... ;)

REDWING

11% - that is crazy. I am in Victoria but i only pay 5.5%. Big different over a year.
 
Had an e-mail from an agency wanting to manage one of my PERTH IP's, no idea how they found my details, however, i enquired as to their prices (here they are- negotiable of course)



1 MANAGEMENT FEES
9.35% For 1 unfurnished property
10% For 1 furnished property
Discount of 10% for multiple properties

2 LETTING FEE
For each ingoing tenant there is a letting fee charged at:
Two weeks rent plus GST for up to 6months lease
Three weeks rent plus GST for a 12months lease
This fee is offset by one weeks rent paid by the tenant.

2 PROPERTY CONDITION REPORTS
$55.00 Per Hour (Max. 4 Hours)

3 ROUTINE INSPECTIONS
$55.00 Per Inspection

4 FINAL INSPECTION (BOND)
$55.00 Per Hour (Max. 2 Hours)

5 ADVERTISING
Until Let

6 TENANT CREDIT CHECK
$7.70/per tenant (REIWA)

7 TITLE SEARCH
$12.00

8 INVENTORY REPORTS
(If furnished) $55.00 Per Hour

9 POSTAGE (MONTHLY)
$7.70 Local
$11.00 Outside Perth
$16.50 Overseas

10 COURT ATTENDANCES
(If required) $66.00 Per Hour (Max 5 Hours)

11 REPAIRS / OUTGOINGS
$200.00 – Contact Owner First
(unless an emergency)

12 CHARGE FOR ATTENDING MEETINGS
(If required) $66.00 to $132.00

13 ANNUAL SUMMARY
(If required) $35.00

14 BANK FEES
Standard bank rates

REDWING
 
G'day Redwing,

Dunno if it's a WA thing, but it seems to me that the RE agencies there employ "wounded bulls" !!! Those costs are huge, and rude !!!

Aren't there other RE agencies over there that are closer to "the norm"?

Regards,

Edited later:- On a re-read, YOU said it :-
Maybe an Opportunity for someone to start a great PM business in WA
 
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We don't own anything in WA but it sounds like a try onto me.
If they only get a few bites it will have paid off handsomely I suspect.
cheers
blossomoz
 
Les said:
Dunno if it's a WA thing, but it seems to me that the RE agencies there employ "wounded bulls" !!! Those costs are huge, and rude !!!

Aren't there other RE agencies over there that are closer to "the norm"?

If you ask agents, the 9.35% rate plus costs seems to be standard, but there are differences between the add-on costs.

However if you have two or more properties, a lower rate is possible, but even a 20% discount would make it dearer than in the east.

Note that Perth rents are a bit lower than in the east, so the PMs might not end up with that much more despite the higher rate.

But it could be a different story in a mining town, where rents are high, where there are transient tenants (lots of letting fees!) and many rental properties are fully furnished (where PMs may charge a couple of percent more).

In such a town a REA that specialises in property management and sourcing properties for investors (working in conjunction with other agents who may have more listings and using the web extensively to get interstate buyers) could be quite a lucrative venture IMHO, especially given that gross yields are still high.

Peter
 
PM Explanation of what you pay for

I sent an e-mail to the PM chasing my IP to manage and queried some fees and what service you get..

LETTING FEES

A fee equivalent to two weeks rent plus GST is charged for up to six months lease and three weeks rent plus GST for a twelve months lease to cover the costs associated with letting the property. The tenant pays the equivalent of one week’s rent as a letting fee which reduces this fee. The balance of the fee is deducted at the end of the month from rent collection or should there be insufficient funds, the fee will be deducted over two months.



This Fee Covers:-



· Placing all advertising regarding the availability of the property (cost of advertisements are charged to the owner).

· Taking enquiries from prospective tenants.

· Obtaining a completed Tenant Application Form.

· Showing prospective tenants through the property (this may involve several trips) or otherwise providing access for viewing.

· Checking references for prospective tenants.

· Completing a Residential Tenancy Agreement with the tenant and signing it on your behalf.

· Completing a Bond lodgement Form and lodging the Form and Bond with an authorised financial institution.

· Handing a set of keys to the tenant with final instructions.

· Making up a file for the property / tenant.

· Tenancy agreement information booklet – we are required to provide each tenant on signing the initial lease agreement.


MANAGEMENT FEES

A fee of 9.35% inclusive of GST of monies collected is charged to manage your investment which covers – (Discount of 10% for multiple properties) i.e., 7.65% + GST (8.415% Inc.)



This Fee Covers:-



· Initial taking of instructions from owners.

· Rental assessments and preparation of Authorities.

· Preparation & placing of advertising.

· Rent Collection

· Issuing of recepts

· Arranging for maintenance work to be carried out.

· Issuing of Notices to tenants (where necessary.)

· Payment of accounts.

· Recouping Water Consumption charges.

· Preparation of Statements.

· Issuing of cheques or payment of rental proceeds into a nominated bank account.

· Ongoing communication with Owners and Tenants.

· Attending to tenant’s maintenance queries and requests.

· Obtaining quotations for maintenance and repair work

· Instructing trades people with regard to maintenance and repair work. (Our involvement with larger scale works may involve an additional fee.)

· Keeping accurate records on our Landlords behalf

· Keeping abreast of current market conditions

· Keeping abreast of current Legislative positions in relating to rental properties.



What do you think... ? :)
 
redwing said:
What do you think... ? :)

Let's try some rough sums for a country town with a population of 30 000 (multiply the figures by 3 for a REA in a largish suburban area serving 90 000)

Pop: 30 000
Number of homes: 10 000 (assuming 3.0 people per house)
Number of privately-owned rental homes (30%): 3 000
Number managed by a REA (67%): 2000
Number of agencies in area who manage properties: 5
Number of properties per agent: 400
Average rent: $200pw ($10k pa assuming 2wks vacancy)

Total rental income collected per agent: $4 million
Assume 12.5% management fee (incl other charges): Income $500k

TOTAL INCOME FROM RENT ROLL: $400k

---

No properties per manager: 100
No PMs: 4
No admin staff: 2 (50% shared with sales)
Managers/Supervisors: 2 (50% shared with sales)
Total staff: 6 (devoted entirely to property management)

Assume $40k salary, $20k costs per staff member
Total wages bill: $360k pa

Office rent (main street of town): $100k pa (?) - 50% = $50k pa

Misc costs, power, REI memberships, etc: $40k pa(?) - 50% = $20k pa

So far we have:

Income: $500k pa
Expenditure: $430k pa

Profit = $70k pa
Profit margin: 14%

So unless any of the figures are significantly out, it looks like a high-volume low margin but stable income stream that would balance up the more volatile sales revenue. 100 properties per manager might be low, and some agents might try to manage with 200 per manager, with very lucrative but not particuarly good results.

Some other points:

1. The relationship and rationale between fixed percentage (eg 9.35%) and variable fee-for-service costs such as (say) a $6 per month admin fees might also be interesting to look at.

Dependence on a lot of flat fee for services increases variability for the landlord (and thus their ability to budget) and makes smaller properties comparatively more expensive than larger properties (and not the same as if all charges were covered in a single 7-8% charge, as appears to be the case in the eastern states).

2. There is also a question on whether there is a degree of cross-subsidy between high-maintenance properties and/or those with bad tenants and low maintenance properties with good tenants that require very little of the PM's time. If so, this may be built into an artificially high charge that penalises astute landlords who only buy properties that attract good tenants.

3. The universal 9.35% amount (in WA) smells like a cartel, with the differences being in the fine print (the inspection, paperwork, admin, letting and other fees) being less tangible, and others, such as quality of service being intangible until after you've signed up.

Rgds, Peter
 
Spiderman said:
Number of homes: 10 000 (assuming 3.0 people per house)

Thinking about it some more, the 3.0 people per house figure would be way off for rental properties.

The average occupancy across all homes is about 2.6.

Most units are rented, whereas more houses are owner-occupied.

Thus the PM's rent roll would be more units than houses.

The occupancy ratio for units is lower than for houses because of smaller (or no) families.

Hence an occupancy average of 2.0 for rental properties managed by a PM would be more reasonable.

A smaller number of people in a larger number of units would equal more revenue for the PM than estimated, so the 14% profit margin could be nearer to 15 - 20%.

Peter
 
Wa

REA's in WA are laughing their socks off..

PM'staff are pulling in consistent profits with the PM fee alone never mind the profits as new tenants move in, properties are inspected etc..
And sales staff are having a *boom* as well as the market continues to Grow..imagine a REA in Mandurah, it's been a good year.


According to REIWA The following locations recorded the largest growth in median housing prices in the last 12 months:


Rank Suburb Growth %

1 Champion Lakes 94.40%

2 Piesse Brook 54.10%

3 Jarrahdale 47.10%

4 Mundijong 44.10%

5 Karawara 38.20%


REDWING
 
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