Analysis Paralysis

Offset...

Definitely get an offset account on your ppor, and save extra into it plus any bonuses or refunds.

A cash buffer such as that is great for peace of mind, unexpected repairs, periods of unemployment etc.

The bigger your buffer, the more comfortable you will feel about new investments.

Would/could your wife return to work when children start private school?

Is there any way you can earn more? Promotion at work? Taking in boarders? Second job?

You're obviously good at planning, so make a plan for the worst case scenario. If that's not too bad... then you should feel more comfortable.

But, yep, eventually you've got to leap and it's much easier to leap before the private school fees start.

Also, if you just can't overcome these feelings, then maybe other forms of investment such as shares or managed funds where each buying decision is only a couple of K at a time might better suit your personality.
 
I might suggest an alternative idea...

Get online and find yourself a nice managed shares fund, which allows you to set up a regular savings plan. Choose a mainstream provider, and one with lower than average fees.

Then, put aside a few thousand dollars and make a regular committment of 5-10% of your post tax income to put be away monthly. If you get really stuck, you can always get some or all of your money back within a few business days. Bear in mind that this should be a long term investment - you're not looking for some capital gain then selling. Reinvest all the dividends.

Now you can start getting into the habit of living on a bit less, and get used to having an investment that can fluctuate in value a bit. Managed funds are good because you don't have to do anything. Once you're comfortable with this, you can think about either leveraging up your shares with a margin loan, or buying a property.

The key, I think, is getting used to the idea and action of regularly tipping cash into assets, be they property, savings, shares, bonds... whatever.

I started with a shares fund before buying property, because I needed to learn to be comfortable with investments.

Just something to think about.
 
Ah, schools. I've got no intention to do it for one, do it for all. I want the elder one to go to a private boarding school in the city, and the other ones can stay at the local school the whole way unless something pops up.

Myers Briggs can be googled and done on line. It will expose your true pesonality type. It may save you the Counsellor costs because you can self diagnose what is holding you back.
I'm an inventor - ENTP. The 'P' is the problem - I'm logical but messy, disorganised and impulsive. Unfortunately my partner is a very similar personality type. So if something is there, and it 'feels' good, and is possible right now, I'll do it, rather than thinking about the one thing forever. Also means the gameplan changes fairly often, and why we accidentally bought a house last year because it was there and then changed our minds completely about what we were going to do with it. And are now busy trying to work out how to get rid of it, with two options - one is 'annoying but lucrative' and the other smooth but impossible without a loan.

It irks me a lot that I see all these things I could do and make a LOT of money from but completely lack the way or means Right Now to do it. Its frustrating. If I was on $90k and been thinking about this for 10 years I'd be a squllionaire by now.
 
WOW - Thanks for all the thoughts so far...

Y-Man asked about more info....

Bought this PPOR almost three years ago. Amount owing is close to the original loan.
I have a 100% offset but it being used as a daily account. This is not working all that well as money builds up but then gets gobbled up with life, probably the odd impulse purchase etc etc.....I do have a separate savings account with a few K now.

Should the offset account become savings only with another account for regular use?

Interest fixed at 7.35% until march 2010. Then goes standard variable.

Some of the suggestions really resonate with me.....particularly the committment to savings.

Given my intentions and my need for a safety net would there be a good target that should see me through the first year or so........

I really appreciate everyones stories and advice. And the polite kick in the pants...!
 
you've had some great advice - which i can't really add to - except to give you a bit of a scare.

where would you be if you had bought an investment property 10 years ago - and then another every 2-3 years after that?

10 years ago i was on $40,000/yr with a $65,000 deposit (thanks to divorce settlement). i bought an inner city ppor for $160k - when i moved in with hubby i rented it for $180/wk so it was more than paying for itself - unforunately i sold it for $185k to buy a new ppor with hubby ... but ... if i'd kept it, it'd be worth around $400,000. i knew nothing about investing at that stage

so, if i'd kept that ip (rent now around $350/wk; mortgage still $100k), my net income now from that property alone would be around neutral at day one, and $10,000/yr now - and getting higher by the year. you'd only need 9 such deals over time to replace your current income.

so, to me, the thought of not doing anything is even scarier than taking action.
 
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I hesitate on affordability, I don't want to put the family into a tight spot

FF, your statement above rings true with me too. It is something I think about a lot but it is also that same fact that made me save hard for a decent cash buffer significant enough to remove the concern/risk.

A $230k mortgage is not really a big debt by current terms so if you're on $90k/year and you can't make any inroads into the debt then I'd have a good hard look at your spending habits (problem). Save as much as you can over the next few months and see where you get to. You don't need that new car, you don't need the biggest TV. I find with saving it's not the $100 item that stops you saving, it's the combination of lots of $100 items. Make sure your wife is on the same wave length too. Make sure she appreciates your plan/goals and doesn't mind sacrificing a little short term for your benefits long term.

How much to save away? Can't give you a figure, it's different for everyone. I currently work on having 2 years expenses tied up in a combination of shares and cash. If something happens work wise or to a family member then we're right to battle away without having to sell any property. Shares are fairly liquid and have fairly good returns at the moment so I don't mind the downside risks there.

Where do you start? Do your research and jump in once you have proven that your cashflow will stand up to the test of saving over the next few months. Are you a bit handy? Could you buy a cheap place and do a bit of a minor reno to increase the rental return? It's amazing what you can do by buying a cheap place and getting a good rental return off it. Let the snowball start rolling down the hill and gather momentum.

If you don't start then you wont have this property portfolio that you talked about earlier. As they say, the best time to buy was yesterday, the next best time is today. Don't be scared to start, that what the general population does and you don't want to be one of those sheep do you???

Gools
 
Hello Firefrog

Once upon a time, we had three small children.

When No: 1 Son was in Grade 6 we were required to advise the Primary School which Secondary School he would be attending.

Well, that was quick! Where did six years go? We hadn’t really thought about secondary schools much, and hadn’t put his name down anywhere, so this was a bit of a problem.

He decided to take matters into his own hands. Despite some very good local Government schools, he decided he wanted to attend a boarding school.

‘Mummy’ he said, getting out his calculator, ‘When you take into account how much food I eat, and how much hot water I use, it won’t cost much extra to send me to boarding school.’

Mike was horrified. The boarding school in question was closer than the government school. ‘People will think we don’t love him!’ Mike said.

So even though we tried to talk him around, the boy was adamant.

‘Mummy’ he said ‘You can’t make me go to the government school. If I can’t go to the College, I am going to run away’.

The College had waiting lists where babies were registered at birth. Nevertheless, I rang them up and told them the story. The Secretary laughed and laughed, took my details, and rang me back in half an hour.

‘The Principal says that this is just the type of student we want. When can you bring him in for an interview?’ she asked. And so, the boy-who-would-run-away went to College. As a Day Student.

So, this left us with our Do It for One, Do It For All policy staring down at three children x six years x Private School Fees. About the cost of a three bedroom house.

So I had a good think about this.

And this is what I thought.

If we impoverish ourselves by sending our children to Private School at a conservative cost of $180,000, and at the end of that time they have had (hopefully) six years of lovely school experiences, and perhaps a mark or two higher than if they had gone to the $18,000 all up cost of the government school, and we end up on the Pension, has this really done any of us any good at all?

So I decided that if we could ‘afford’ to send them to a private school (under the guise of ‘investing in their future’), then we had to match, dollar for dollar, that same investment in ourselves.

The school fees would be approximately $100 per child per week. Yes, for a number of years we would have two children at the school as the eldest one left and the youngest one entered, but we had to invest dollar for dollar, no excuses.

And that is what we did. We invested for them and we invested for ourselves.

I am happy to say, that the house I bought in 1994 for $105,000 is now worth about $350,000. Apart from the deposit, I have not ever had to make up the payments. I structured the deal so that the rent would cover everything, and it always has done.

So they all had a nice time at school and the Mission Brown single bowl sink house has effectively paid for the school fees and paid us as well.

If we sold it now (which we won’t) then we would see the $180,000 paid back to us. Of course, why kill the goose which lays the golden eggs? It doesn’t cost us anything and the cash flow from that property has enabled us to buy more properties, which are all happily clucking along, laying golden eggs as fast as they can.

At a conservative estimate, I reckon the Mission Brown house has increased in value about $45 each day, every day (plus the rent) since I bought it.

So, Firefrog, what is there to be paralysed about? You earn a significant income. If you want to spend it all, great, but if you want to set an example to your children, then put on your Nikes and start to walk the talk.

Do you know where the Mission Brown house is (was)? On my general school to shops run. It wasn’t anywhere fancy, it was in the same postcode and it had been on the market for months.

It has never been empty, and the mortgage is still about the same, about $65,000. It gets $320 per week rent.

Most importantly, because of that house, all three children (who are not so small anymore) also bought investment properties from their afterschool earnings at the local Bi-Lo. The Boy-Who-Would-Run-Away bought his first property ‘Off The Plan’ at 16 & half.

Yes, sir, that Private School education decision was a very important decision. We made sure that the children all worked from their 15th Birthdays and their work ethic and financial sense is remarkable. Plus, with the exception of the youngest who was very ill for some years, they all did reasonably well academically, too! However, the youngest (who is now 22) now controls property worth about $850,000 so he hasn’t done too badly, considering.

That $180,000 in School Fees has paid handsome dividends – because we made sure we paid ourselves the same as we were paying the school.

We simply could not afford to not do so.

Hope this helps
Kristine

This is Classic Gold, hence I have re-quoted....this is why we invest, meaning we chose to invest for ourselves, our future, our independence.

Classic Gold Inspiring Post.
 
You may have too mcuh information coming at you each day - Keep it simple

Firefrog

Adelaide would have a Property Investor meeting - so start attending.

FEAR
I might not be able to afford private school fees if I buy and IP.
If I don't buy and IP I know I will have to work longer and harder.

ACTION
  • I will ring a mortgage broker to see if I can get a loan and for how much.
  • I will ask wife for her support. If the worst comes wife can find a small job in the middle of the day to help you through any hard patches. After all if you were sick for a long periods she would have to work?
  • Buy now so you can get a tax return next July and see how it all goes
  • Our kids may have to do one or two years at a public school first
UNDERSTAND
You will make mistakes and you will forgive yourself and learn from your mistakes

Rob's strategy is good.
Rixter's strategy is good.

Time to talk to the wife.

BTW
Firefrog my husband is not really supportive, he signs the mortgage papers, I have to persuade him to do things.

He is not really interested. If he was he has the skills to 'buy & do reno's' and also 'build new projects' his nature is reactive mine is proactive.


Motivation to Succeed

Fear keeps people trapped
□ Desire creates an urge for security
□ Action sets you free

Causes of fear
□ Lack of knowledge
□ Lack of confidence to make a decision

Symptoms of fear
□ Procrastination – putting decisions off”
□ Complacency – “She’ll be right, mate”
□ Insecurity
□ Settling for second best

Cure of fear
□ Get the right information
□ Make an effort to learn and understand
□ Gain confidence to make the right decision

Causes of desire
□ Wanting the best for yourself and your family

Symptoms of desire
□ Daydreaming
□ Wishing
□ Inaction

Cure of desire
□ Setting goals and making your dreams come true

From the book “Wouldn’t you rather be rich?” by Deidre Lampe


Sheryn
 
So I have a short goal list.

Get my accounts sorted - In progress. Should be done in a week for cards to be issued etc....
Prop up savings into the offset and provide a safety net - In Progress
Get a valuation and arrange a IO LOC against PPOR. - Arrange first week in Jan.
Continue getting educated - in progess
Buy First IP March April 2010 - providing banks are happy with serviceability.
 
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Firefrog,
Great work! I work for a software company. Whenever we go to do a pilot install for a customer, we use an "entry criteria" document. Tick off everything that needs to be in place for the pilot to go ahead. Then we have "pilot acceptance criteria" - how do we know we've been successful.

By planning and having a list as you've shown, you're got your "entry criteria". You'll now know when you're ready, if you can tick off your list.

Thanks for sharing - it's been a help to me, too!

"If you fail to plan, you plan to fail"
 
I can relate

I am trying to break the cycle and be proactive. I am interested in peoples opinions, thoughts and stories on how they overcame similar hesitations. I doubt I'm alone.

My story should not be read as a statement, more of a what do you suggest question. I'm all ears and want to get started.

I want to trust the numbers and begin.

Cheers

mate, was exactly like you a year ago. Six months ago I bought my first one and I'm about to settle on my second one in a couple of weeks.The easiest path is to do nothing...you tend to sleep better(for the time being). With the help of a good friend on here, i find myself now very focused on what I want.Mind you.. the jitters never completely go away... but are to a lesser degree... just start somewhere mate.. you already have the know how..
 
I was having a chat with a bloke @ work who was keen on investing in some resi property, he doesn't own anything but summed it up pretty good

He said: "You gotta have some nuts"

u can read all the books and do all the courses but unless you have some nuts nothing will happen
 
I've just finished reading this thread.

This thread has some wonderful posts.

I agree Kristine's post is gold - the big picture post. I like how her children benefited from Kristine's property investment and now that they are adults, they too have been inspired to invest in property. Kristine's post is very inspirational.

But what if Kristine had done nothing. What's the chance all her children are investing in property if they did not have the parents to inspire them?

I too have children - they are primary school aged. My wife and I also have IPs. In the back of my mind I am hoping that my children learn from us and that when they become adults, they too are inspired to buy property.

Do not underestimate your children's ability to learn from their parents. But if you do nothing what will your children learn?

Parents have a big role in children's education in my opinion.
 
I'm not going to waste your time too much Firefrog, I'll lay it on thick:

JUST GO AND BUY A LOW ENTRY COST IP WITH AS BEST CF AS POSSIBLE!!!

Worse case scenario???
You will have to sell one day...whopee.
You may only make minimal profit...whooppeee.
You will have crap tenants...whooppppeeeeeeeeeeeee.....

Get the message?

Sorry to be so abrupt...but sometimes it's all people need...:D

Getting the finance etc. is all technical mumbo jumbo that you can easily work through...we can all help.
 
Hiya

Can i also suggest that it helps to be proactive and join a property forum group where you live? Sometimes it helps to mingle with other investors and realise hey! this is "normal" and there are many people out there doing it!

That's what happened with my husband; always very conservative and always thinking of paying off his PPOR and that's it.. 3 years ago, .i paid for a one day Navra Property Course for him and that was the best $95 i spent. Told him the night before i'll look after the kids, packed him to the station at 7am on a Sunday morning. He called me at noon and i could feel his excitement. We have continued patchily to attend a property group and now we are buying our 4th property!

Be brave and start off with a lower median price property where the majority of your mortgage payments are from the tenant...

Oh, for our first IP, we bought through a buyer's agent; best $5000 i could have spent; returned us many folds

All the best
 

JUST GO AND BUY A LOW ENTRY COST IP WITH AS BEST CF AS POSSIBLE!!!

Worse case scenario???

(snip)

Getting the finance etc. is all technical mumbo jumbo that you can easily work through...we can all help.


I think that I have already posted my views in this thread, but I also think it worth repeating. Property investment is not without risk and the OP's questions are warranted.

The worst case scenario, from a purely financial perspective, is bankruptcy. Losing the family home.

Taking the plunge has proven quite profitable for many of us here, myself included. Property investment has the potential to create a lot of wealth in a short amount of time, certainly, but jumping into a low cost deal just for the sake of being in the market is perhaps not the soundest of strategies.

I strongly believe that the risks do need to be analysed, so that they can be mitigated. The "technical mumbo jumbo" is what makes or breaks a deal. So, I think, it's probably worth paying attention to.

It's been encouraging to read about your progress already, Firefrog, one step at a time. I'm looking forward to reading more about that soon, too.
 
The worst case scenario, from a purely financial perspective, is bankruptcy. Losing the family home.

and...

I strongly believe that the risks do need to be analysed, so that they can be mitigated. The "technical mumbo jumbo" is what makes or breaks a deal. So, I think, it's probably worth paying attention to.

See, I have to disagree...there is no way that a person in that particular scenario will become bankrupt..NO WAY!!! Unless, they go silly and invest in high risky off-the-plan etc...

Technical mumbo-jumbo does nto break deals, but, as we can see here, stops a lot of people from "jumping in".

Lastly, by buying something "just to be in it", Mr Frog here can gain valuable experience...either positive or negative, for a low entry cost.......at the moment, he is still sitting on his hands. How long has he been thinking of investing??? :D
 
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