blacktown council subdivision
- Thread starter ermen
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And detached, well at least when I got my last approval few years back.
A dual occ is 2 dwellings which can either be 2 separate buildings or attached, but are on the same title. A sub-division is where you split the title into 2 (or more), either torrens or strata. You can put a dual occ on any block over 450sqm, from memory, but it must be attached if that small. You cannot sub-divide this. Mostly a dual occ will be house with Granny Flat.
Say you build an attached duplex/dual occupancy.
Can you sell them separately if they are stata titled?
There doesn't have to be a subdivision does there?
Can you sell them separately if they are stata titled?
There doesn't have to be a subdivision does there?
Strata title is a form of sub-division. If the council does not allows sub-division (strata or torrens) on the development, they won't have separate titles and so can only be sold together.
As mentioned, I do not believe Blacktown allow sub-division of attached dual occs, only some detatched that meet other requirements. Go to their web site and download the DCP's. It's all in there, somewhere
I was told by my council (Sutherland) that we can't subdivide land the duplex we are planning on building, but can strata title, therefore, sell off separately if desired.
Is this wrong?
Is this wrong?
Yes, it's incorrect.
The form of subdivision creates 2 (or more) separate lots of land. These can either be strata/ torrens (also others but won't complicate things). You can then sell each lot off separately.
Re Blacktown, the block I live on, I can build a dual occ/ duplex, but can't subdivide as I do not have enough land. My figures tell me it's not worth it until subdivision is permitted again.
I read a local article a few months ago that said subdivision for 'smaller blocks' may be brought back in 2010... wait and see
ps - if you have any questions, I suggest a phone call to a good surveyor. I remember using north-west surveys many years ago. They know all the rules and regs.
I'm a little confused about this so i just went back to the council development website and it says:
Subdivision of dual occupancies is permitted on corner lots with a minimum area of 800 sqm with a miniumum of 18 metre frontage (Torrens Title possible). Strata title subdivision is permissible on smaller lots.
This is what was explained to me on the phone by council also.
For my block, I can't do Torrens Title, but can do Strata Title.
Can this be possible?
Subdivision of dual occupancies is permitted on corner lots with a minimum area of 800 sqm with a miniumum of 18 metre frontage (Torrens Title possible). Strata title subdivision is permissible on smaller lots.
This is what was explained to me on the phone by council also.
For my block, I can't do Torrens Title, but can do Strata Title.
Can this be possible?
I read a local article a few months ago that said subdivision for 'smaller blocks' may be brought back in 2010... wait and see
Shhhhh, don't tell everyone.
Are we talking Blacktown council, or Sutherland? They all have different rulings.
Sorry if it was off topic, but I was talking about Sutherland council.
Subdivision Controls
Blackspider - I'm a town planner so lets see if we can clear this up for you. First, here's the disclaimer: The following advice is of a general nature only and is my opinion - you should always seek independent professional advice.
You need to consult the relevant controls for each Council to determine whether or not you can subdivide.
There are two types of subdivision:
1. Torrens Title - this is where a block is a completely seperate entity to any other block. This is the most valuable form of subdivision because there is no common property of body corporate as there is with strata subdivision.
2. Strata Subdivision - this is what is used for townhouse and apartment blocks generally, where each title pertains to it's own 'dwelling' and also a share of the common property, like driveways etc.
To find out what you can do, you need to refer to the Local Environmental Plan for the Council.
BLACKTOWN
The Blacktown Local Environmental Plan states the following:
Subdivision of dual occupancies
10A. (1) The council must not consent to a subdivision that creates separate land titles for the two
dwellings comprising a dual occupancy.
Note: Amendment No. 95 to Blacktown Local Environmental Plan 1988 provides a savings
provision that enables an application to subdivide a dual occupancy which has been lawfully
erected, or which may be lawfully erected, in accordance with a consent that was applied for
after 1 January 1992 and prior to 13 March 1998 to be determined as if the clause 10A does
not apply.
(2) Despite subclause (1), the council may consent to the subdivision of a corner allotment of land
on which a detached dual occupancy is situated within any of the residential zones so as to
create separate land titles for each dwelling, if:
(a) the two dwellings comprising the detached dual occupancy each face different
streets, and
(b) it can be demonstrated that:
(i) the detached dual occupancy complies with the council’s development
requirements under Blacktown Development Control Plan 1992 for detached
dual occupancies on corner allotments in the residential zone concerned, and
(ii) the objectives of the residential zone concerned will not be compromised by
the subdivision, and
(c) the area of each allotment to be created by the subdivision is not less than 300 square
metres.
If you do not meet these requirements, you cannot torrens title subdivide your dual occupancy BUT you can strata title it. Not quite as good because you sale price wont be as high, but still pretty good because you can sell each one seperately.
SUTHERLAND
The Sutherland Shire Local Environmental Plan states the following:
40 Dual occupancies—internal lots and lot sizes
Note. Clauses 37 and 38 contain provisions that are relevant to the application of this clause.
(1) Application of clause
This clause applies to land in Zone 1—Environmental Housing (Environmentally Sensitive Land), Zone 2—Environmental Housing (Scenic Quality), Zone 3—Environmental Housing (Bushland), Zone 4—Local Housing or Zone 5—Multiple Dwelling A.
(2) Controls
Despite any other provision of this plan, the following are prohibited on land to which this clause applies:
(a) the subdivision of land for the purpose of a dual occupancy if the lot on which the dual occupancy is proposed to be located is an internal lot,
(b) the subdivision of land that results in 2 separate lots for each of the 2 dwellings comprising a dual occupancy if 1 of the resulting lots would be an internal lot,
(c) the erection of 1 or 2 dwellings as, or as part of, a dual occupancy on an internal lot.
(3) Despite any other provision of this plan, the subdivision of land that creates 2 separate lots for each of the 2 dwellings comprising a dual occupancy is prohibited on land in Zone 1—Environmental Housing (Environmentally Sensitive Land) or Zone 2—Environmental Housing (Scenic Quality).
(4) The minimum area and minimum width of a lot of land in Zone 3—Environmental Housing (Bushland), Zone 4—Local Housing or Zone 5—Multiple Dwelling A is 800 square metres and 18 metres respectively if:
(a) there is a dual occupancy on the lot, and
(b) it is proposed to subdivide the lot to create 2 separate lots for each of the 2 dwellings comprising the dual occupancy.
(5) Subclause (4) does not apply in relation to subdivision creating a lot within the meaning of the Strata Schemes (Freehold Development) Act 1973 or the Strata Schemes (Leasehold Development) Act 1986.
(6) The minimum area of a lot of land to which this clause applies on which it is proposed to erect 1 or 2 dwellings as, or as part of, a dual occupancy is 600 square metres.
So basically, you need at least 800sqm and to be in the correct zone to be able to torrens title subdivide in Sutherland, or you can just strata subdivide any dual occ.
If you need any further clarification, just ring up the Council and ask to speak with the 'duty town planner' and they will be able to assist you.
Blackspider - I'm a town planner so lets see if we can clear this up for you. First, here's the disclaimer: The following advice is of a general nature only and is my opinion - you should always seek independent professional advice.
You need to consult the relevant controls for each Council to determine whether or not you can subdivide.
There are two types of subdivision:
1. Torrens Title - this is where a block is a completely seperate entity to any other block. This is the most valuable form of subdivision because there is no common property of body corporate as there is with strata subdivision.
2. Strata Subdivision - this is what is used for townhouse and apartment blocks generally, where each title pertains to it's own 'dwelling' and also a share of the common property, like driveways etc.
To find out what you can do, you need to refer to the Local Environmental Plan for the Council.
BLACKTOWN
The Blacktown Local Environmental Plan states the following:
Subdivision of dual occupancies
10A. (1) The council must not consent to a subdivision that creates separate land titles for the two
dwellings comprising a dual occupancy.
Note: Amendment No. 95 to Blacktown Local Environmental Plan 1988 provides a savings
provision that enables an application to subdivide a dual occupancy which has been lawfully
erected, or which may be lawfully erected, in accordance with a consent that was applied for
after 1 January 1992 and prior to 13 March 1998 to be determined as if the clause 10A does
not apply.
(2) Despite subclause (1), the council may consent to the subdivision of a corner allotment of land
on which a detached dual occupancy is situated within any of the residential zones so as to
create separate land titles for each dwelling, if:
(a) the two dwellings comprising the detached dual occupancy each face different
streets, and
(b) it can be demonstrated that:
(i) the detached dual occupancy complies with the council’s development
requirements under Blacktown Development Control Plan 1992 for detached
dual occupancies on corner allotments in the residential zone concerned, and
(ii) the objectives of the residential zone concerned will not be compromised by
the subdivision, and
(c) the area of each allotment to be created by the subdivision is not less than 300 square
metres.
If you do not meet these requirements, you cannot torrens title subdivide your dual occupancy BUT you can strata title it. Not quite as good because you sale price wont be as high, but still pretty good because you can sell each one seperately.
SUTHERLAND
The Sutherland Shire Local Environmental Plan states the following:
40 Dual occupancies—internal lots and lot sizes
Note. Clauses 37 and 38 contain provisions that are relevant to the application of this clause.
(1) Application of clause
This clause applies to land in Zone 1—Environmental Housing (Environmentally Sensitive Land), Zone 2—Environmental Housing (Scenic Quality), Zone 3—Environmental Housing (Bushland), Zone 4—Local Housing or Zone 5—Multiple Dwelling A.
(2) Controls
Despite any other provision of this plan, the following are prohibited on land to which this clause applies:
(a) the subdivision of land for the purpose of a dual occupancy if the lot on which the dual occupancy is proposed to be located is an internal lot,
(b) the subdivision of land that results in 2 separate lots for each of the 2 dwellings comprising a dual occupancy if 1 of the resulting lots would be an internal lot,
(c) the erection of 1 or 2 dwellings as, or as part of, a dual occupancy on an internal lot.
(3) Despite any other provision of this plan, the subdivision of land that creates 2 separate lots for each of the 2 dwellings comprising a dual occupancy is prohibited on land in Zone 1—Environmental Housing (Environmentally Sensitive Land) or Zone 2—Environmental Housing (Scenic Quality).
(4) The minimum area and minimum width of a lot of land in Zone 3—Environmental Housing (Bushland), Zone 4—Local Housing or Zone 5—Multiple Dwelling A is 800 square metres and 18 metres respectively if:
(a) there is a dual occupancy on the lot, and
(b) it is proposed to subdivide the lot to create 2 separate lots for each of the 2 dwellings comprising the dual occupancy.
(5) Subclause (4) does not apply in relation to subdivision creating a lot within the meaning of the Strata Schemes (Freehold Development) Act 1973 or the Strata Schemes (Leasehold Development) Act 1986.
(6) The minimum area of a lot of land to which this clause applies on which it is proposed to erect 1 or 2 dwellings as, or as part of, a dual occupancy is 600 square metres.
So basically, you need at least 800sqm and to be in the correct zone to be able to torrens title subdivide in Sutherland, or you can just strata subdivide any dual occ.
If you need any further clarification, just ring up the Council and ask to speak with the 'duty town planner' and they will be able to assist you.
Land, thank you very much for taking the time to explain it.
So Strata title is still ok, even though subdivision may not be possible.
I would assume this as a duplex could be similar to townhouses or small bolck of units, and they don't get subdivided.
Thanks
So Strata title is still ok, even though subdivision may not be possible.
I would assume this as a duplex could be similar to townhouses or small bolck of units, and they don't get subdivided.
Thanks
Hi Blackspider,
No, strata is a form of subdivision, it just includes common property. In this regard, it's not as valuable as torrens title because you own your own site, completely seperate from any other site, and hence it is worth more.
A lot of Council's do allow torrens title subdivision of dual occupancies, Bankstown is an example, but some of them like Blacktown only allow strata, I don't know why though. You are correct, strata is exactly what townhouse developments are.
So it's certainly not the end of the world, and you can sell them seperately, it's just not quite as perfect as torrens title subdivision.
Good luck!
No, strata is a form of subdivision, it just includes common property. In this regard, it's not as valuable as torrens title because you own your own site, completely seperate from any other site, and hence it is worth more.
A lot of Council's do allow torrens title subdivision of dual occupancies, Bankstown is an example, but some of them like Blacktown only allow strata, I don't know why though. You are correct, strata is exactly what townhouse developments are.
So it's certainly not the end of the world, and you can sell them seperately, it's just not quite as perfect as torrens title subdivision.
Good luck!
Sorry if it's been asked before, but is it worth doing strata title on a duplex if a long term hold is intended?
Any idea of initial costs to set up and ongoing costs?
We are building a duplex next year and don't know if we should strata title or not.
Thanks
Any idea of initial costs to set up and ongoing costs?
We are building a duplex next year and don't know if we should strata title or not.
Thanks
Alex,
You are absolutely correct. There is really no need for a body corporate as such, because it's just you and your neighbour, and the common property is basically the driveway!
My folks added a strata title dual occ in Blacktown last year and basically it may as well be torrens title because there are no strata issues.
Blackspider, I believe that you definitely should strata it because it gives you options in terms of being able to sell one if necessary. Also, you should get a higher valuation once it's subdivided which means you have generated more equity. Always take/develop your property to the highest possible level. Besides, the cost of strata subdivision is minimal, there's the surveyor's cost, DA fees with Council (very small), lodgement fees with the land titles office, and probably a Section 94 fee from Council (although they may charge this already for the dual occupancy even if you don't intend to subdivide it).
Cheers
You are absolutely correct. There is really no need for a body corporate as such, because it's just you and your neighbour, and the common property is basically the driveway!
My folks added a strata title dual occ in Blacktown last year and basically it may as well be torrens title because there are no strata issues.
Blackspider, I believe that you definitely should strata it because it gives you options in terms of being able to sell one if necessary. Also, you should get a higher valuation once it's subdivided which means you have generated more equity. Always take/develop your property to the highest possible level. Besides, the cost of strata subdivision is minimal, there's the surveyor's cost, DA fees with Council (very small), lodgement fees with the land titles office, and probably a Section 94 fee from Council (although they may charge this already for the dual occupancy even if you don't intend to subdivide it).
Cheers
