Career vs Cruise and Plan

[James1977]

I haven't posted a lot in this forum but have been reading a lot (especially of late) and am one of the many who marvel at the inspiration (free inspiration at that!) that is so readily available here. Its cliche I know, but thanks to everyone who will do it, is doing it and has done it for posting your ideas plans and dreams - you have no way of knowing how far your influence has reached.

Anyway:

I have come to the realisation (and 'Duh!, you might say!) that we are of the minority of the population who are REALLY taking our financial future into our own hands.

I was wondering how many of you are still under pressure to perform in industry so as to acheive that next promotion or status position. How many people out there still strive to give 110% when in effect it will make very little difference to their bottom line at retirement.

Please don't confuse this for a lack of drive and initiative; that's not what I'm talking about. I guess I'm referring to the thousands of us who are in jobs that are 'just okay', don't hate but it, but certainly don't love it. Would you turn up every Monday morning if they halved your salary over the weekend?

What I'm getting at is a really ingrained pressure to do well at your job, to climb the corporate ladder and 'succeed'. Me; I'm quite happy to stay at the level I'm at until I can get out altogether, I don't need the stress or the hassle and don't have the time to devote to something I don't love. I'm reasonably lucky in the sense that I'm young (25) earn a well-above average income, and only have to work 3.5 days a week for it, but that's not the point.

We're all here to acheive financial independence, and hey, maybe a lot of you will continue to do what you do right now even after you need to. Good for you, I'm sincerely envious! My question is for the others then. How do you manage the pressure to resist climbing the corporate ladder, how do you refuse the extra workload and stress and explain to people that you just don't need it! How do you turn down the payrise knowing that having taken it it would give you less time to spend with your families, less time to scour the market and manage your investments and possibly wouldn't make all that much difference to your borrowing capacity anyway?

Has anyone been in this situation?

Regards

 

[jahn]

Hi
Answer, yes
It's easy.
Depends on your priorities. Mine has been family first and everythng else after that. So a decision to earn more money for more hours and more pressure and more stress, and possibly move home from friends and family doesn't compute, on my computer.
The difference to the borrowng capacity has never been a factor in the figures.
I still do the best dam job I can at work, to earn as much as I can (and to keep the job for now) and if it's not good enough, I guess I'll do something alse
jahn

 

[WillG]

Hi James 1977,

Interesting post & great questions.

How to resist the promotion etc ...

Don't aim for 'middle management' aim for upper management. Upper management delegates the 'high stress' tasks to middle management. Think Big !

Don't work harder, work smarter !

 

[James1977]

Hiya Will,

I like that!

Isn't it difficult to get to upper management without first toiling in middle management?

Unless of course you start/own the organisation!

"work smarter, not harder" - an excellent philosophy, perhaps one we should all remind ourselves of regularly.

 

[chicos]

James,

Interesting thoughts. Its right up my ally at the moment.

I was retrenched Jan this year and have only just got a job on Friday!! (Woo-Hoo!!).

On top of that My wife has just had our first baby, so she is not working at the moment as well.

The last thing I wanted to do was to go back into the IT workforce and bust-a-gut again just to keep my job, but one of us needs to bring in the cash, and it ain't my wife.

I've had to put on hold my investing (and eventual exit from the workforce) while this was going on, and am not looking forward to starting from scratch in a new company.

I've had to accept a job with less pay and more responsibility than the last. What this has made me realise is that I will now work twice as hard on the IP's and shorten the time spent working for the man.

As for doing the job, I'll do what needs to be done to keep the job, get the bonus's and impress but will find it hard to accept any advancement within the company.

I can't wait to see the day when I can work/run a company in an area that I love doing. Till then I'm accepting the lots of money they love to give to IT staff.

 

[WillG]

Isn't it difficult to get to upper management without first toiling in middle management?

Couldn't tell you. I am but a humble worker.

I had a chat with my 'middle management' boss the other day and asked about the state of the business. He wasn't really able to answer my question - He always seems focused on cashflow and paying the troops. I asked him how he expects to 'grow the business's assets' and at least keep in line with inflation - He looked at me like I was from another planet. I explained that running several investment properties is the same as running a business and 'asset/capital' growth is just as important as cashflow.

Anyway, to cut a long story short - he suggested I brief his managers on some strategies to 'build the business'. It dawned on me that I have the experience to 'run with the big boys' from my experience running investment properties.

I am happy as a humble 'worker', improving my technical & people skills while I build my property portfolio.

Cheers

 

[D.T.]

Hi James1977,

I can relate quite a bit to your original post. When I first started at my original job i was one of the top performers in the company, because i wanted to work my way up the ladder.

Then i 'mutated' into an investors mindset, and I'm having trouble caring about work anymore as I know that its not going to be providing for me forever.

-Regards

Dave

 

[coolstyle]

Hey James1977,

Good question ... one I'm faced almost every day.
Funny you mention this as I'm also 25 yrs old and in the middle of a 3 week annual leave break in which I have spent a lot of time trying to put together short and long term deals to plant a good base for my financial future.

The tough thing is .. I go back to work in 1.5 weeks ... back to 50+ hrs in IT consulting in a company with great pressure to advance up the chain of command.

What to do? ..
3 basic options exist the way i see things.
1) Stay working hard and long hours and try to continue with property and other ventures ... my guess is you will not succeed at any of these as you will have too much on your plate.
2) Work hard but draw the line on overtime ... that is, become an efficient can do person that gets things done within and 'normal' working week ... teach your employer that your worth good money and you don't need to work 14 hr days to prove it.
3) Take unpaid leave and go ahead and really go for property ... maybe you need to wait 3months .. even 3-5 years .. but when the time comes, quit your job or take longer leave to focus on a good opportunity.

Overall, do the sums on how much you get for the extra effort at work .. then compare this with some realistic sums on how much you can get from spending the same amount of time in property investment (learning and doing) ...
I expect you will then tell me that promotions are a waste of time to strive for ... un less of course you change companies and get into contract work in your area of expertise? .. maybe you double your pay and get to take 3mths per year off.

Cheers,
Coolstyle

 

[zamaz]

Hi all

I'm only a little fish in the office and I think most companies suck in that they expect you to give up your spare time/family time to better help their business, but with no rewards except some long off idea of a miniscule payrise. My company this month wants me to go on a group hug session on the sunday and seminar on the monday. Told them no - had a lengthy excuse up my sleeve but they didn't even ask. Imaginery genital problems always a good idea - who's going to ask for more detail when you say that?

I think we all have a right to choose how our work lives progress and as most people only go to work because they have to not cos they want to, maybe that should be pointed out to those in charge a bit more often - not all of us have company cars and mobile phone accounts to soften the blow of long working hours and time away from families.

I'm just glad that we have discovered a different way of financial freedom than the constant sucking up to management and becoming a person you aren't in order to fit in to their company.

Good for all of you who aren't scared to swim against the tide!

 

[PEI]

James this is a great question.

I think that most people! (but not all) are in a job that it's not necessary the most rewarding and enjoyable thing in their life.
Once you come to the realisation that most of your money will be made through investment vehicles such as, Property, Shares,
own business etc it is hard to strive for the top of the ladder. When we are financial uneducated we start our careers
in the belief that our prosperous future depends on our work for somebody else, getting that promotion, getting that raise, moving to a better company, working longs hours etc. Once we become financially educated it's like a light goes on bing!!!! we start to loose that drive and ambition for someone else's company and use it for our own purposes.

My present work is purely to help fund the cash flow of my investments and living expenses. All my corporate ambition/stress has left. My focus is now on my investments, how I can cover my expenses through investments? means retirement or part time work and more investing. It does not mean that when I reach the point of retirement I will sit around and play golf all day it just means I can work at what I want to do.

It's a great feeling loaded up with the knowledge that you won't have to slave your way to 60. Defining rich is living of the interest from the cashflow of your investments. Now wouldn't that be great. How far do we have to get before we feel comfortable enough to retire?

1/ cover your living expenses with investment
cashflow?

2/ cover your living expenses and additional money
for holidays and investing with investment
cash flow?

3/ Or rich cover living expenses and additional money
for holidays and investing with interest from cash flow?

I might post this question separately as a pole.

 

[nads]

That was my mindset last Friday afternoon, when I posted the question of how to stay motivated at work, when you know that sometime down the track, you will reach the light at the end of the dark tunnel!

Since Friday, I have looked at work from a different perspective. No, I have never and will NEVER do overtime. I dont get paid for it, I dont get recognition for it, and my family suffers from it!

BUT I will always be willing to take on small projects or tasks that are not on my job description, provided that I will gain a new skill that I can use whilst on the path to financial freedom. I also don't get stressed at work anymore, don't suck up to my boss, and laugh when he tells me he is retiring in 10 years time (I feel like saying, I'll be retired by then, and Im half your age).

Whenever work gets me down, I sit infront of my PC and think to myself "how will I break the news to my boss that I am retiring?" I try to picture the day when I tell them Im retiring. I'll be in my thirties.

That is the best revenge!

 

[BKH]

James. Good post and very interesting.

Yes for nigh on 30 years I sat in an office , did the best I could. Complimented on my skills and being the utmost a team player. But in the end, after some 6 mergers & takeovers resulted in a redundancy some 12 months ago. Knew it was coming 12 months prior so had time to mentally prepare.

My priorities had always been family, and my hobbies. Never a high paying job but enought to be comfortable, super, no debts except 2 investment properties (pos cash flow)

No I have not returned to being an employee but am now my own boss. Shorter hours and earning more per hour . Best of all I can employ my immediate family and I see more of them and can follow my hobbies. So far all my aims are being met. Can be scarey without the security of being an employee but nowadays there is no guarantee of secure emplyment anymore. Just my pennies worth.

 

[MarkB]

Until recently I worked in the Commonwealth Government.

If you want to talk about mindset, then the Australian Public Service (APS) is perhaps the classic example.

The place is filled with what I call "lifers".

These are people that know that they will work for the APS until the age of 55, at which time they will collect their guaranteed superannuation payouts + indexed pension.

These people value job security (it is basically impossible to get sacked from the APS), they avoid taking risks just like a cat avoids water

Thankfully it didn't take me long to realise that I was not of this mindset.

It did, however, take 3 1/2 years (after joining the APS) to make a positive move to the real world.

In many of the core departments (Treasury, Prime Minister & Cabinet, Finance) employees talk of "psychic income". That is, the non-cash benefit that one derives from working on certain issues (eg. the Budget).

I used to work with a guy who had a shirt that on the front read "Ex-Treasury" and on the back "The psychic income was not enough".

Bloody oath it wasn't.

Now, instead of 55, I'm aiming for 35.

MB

 

[Aceyducey]

I'm in a slightly different boat, a workaholic who has retired to focus on property investing full-time (mostly renos at present).

I did achieve the giddy heights of a CEO role for a company for about two hours, then we all decided to bring in an outsider instead - believe me...being a CEO is a tough, thankless job....

As I've worked a lot in speculative industries & been more of a company founder than wage slave (about 30% of the time a wage slave in my 'career') I've generally been surrounded by go-getter-type people. Other types of people cannot stand the culture or the pressure.

This has made it very hard for me to deal with the 'lifers' as I cannot identify with them...and means I find it no fun to work for many organisations and WOULD NOT DO IT.

My priorities have always been family & fun.

Money is a tool to improve the quality of enjoying these things...

Financial independence is a mechanism for allowing me to enjoy these things on a continuous basis.

BTW - I do enjoy working (qualifies as fun for me), but I am a bit over it at present....will probably unretire myself sometime in the next few years when I see an opportunity interesting enough


BTW: BHK, I sympathise with you - even with 12 months to prepare I know how heart-breaking a redundancy can be....effectively it's a rejection....I told the board in my last role to make me redundant (end 2001 - indirectly due to terrorist strikes in the US) & I still felt very emotional about being made redundant.

Cheers,

Aceyducey

 

[Bear924]

Great topic, it's something I've put a degree of thought into.
When I look at employment prospects I look at the bang I get for my buck eg how many $$ can I earn in a given period. I don't believe it's worth earning huge $$ working excessive hours when it's possible to earn good $$ working reasonable hours and then having spare time doing things you want to do. When I'm at work I try to focus on work (except for somersoft at lunch!!) and then when I go home I try to focus on home.

What I do struggle with is the desire to start a business or plunge out on my own, the reality is that I would be required to work more hours to grow the business which could indeed be worse off in the long run.

When I completed high school and looked around at what I could do I thought ' What pays well and offers good conditions' and decided to complete a trade instead of going to uni.... in hindsight I think that was one of the smartest things I've done. I really think that to many high school leavers rule out anything except for university and then authomatically rule themselves out of some very interesting and rewarding jobs.

 

[Iggy_Type_R]

Heya James1977,

I have been in a similar position.

I was 21, with a uni degree in IT, and a consulting job that not only paid craploads, but also had travel and aobut 20k of benefits a year on top of that, when it first hit me that THAT approach is not going to get me to where I want to go.

So on one side of the scale was this career path that would have me a chief information officer or something like that by 30, with high SALARY and "great" benefits... or ... I stop "climbing" the ladder and start BUILDING my own ladder.

Ultimately it comes down to return on investment. you work 200 days a year (full time empl.) for say 50,000 per year. That's $250 per day. for 8 hours... that's $31.25 ... not bad I guess.

Say to get to 70,000 per year you have to "work hard, be good to your mother" kinda thing... but for an extra 2 hours a day!

That's a good return isn't it? $20,000 for 400 extra hours. That's $50 per hour!!! Now we're going somewhere huh? (yes yes, sarcasm is just mt thing )

Or you stop putting time into a career and put it into investment.

For extra 2 hours a day you could build (IMHO) $1,000,000 net position in 5 years EASILY. (As I said, that's MY opinion)

That's 2000 hours, for 1m bucks... that's $500 per hour ... if you wish to count that. Of course you also get growth, passive income, etc etc etc. Which one is a better time investment do you think?

It just comes down to ROI mate Which option is more worthwhile for you?

To answer a specific question about turning down payrise: One word... Lo-doc!!!!

 

[jahn]

Iggy_Type_R

Well at least you get to work less days than me;

"Ultimately it comes down to return on investment. you work 200 days a year (full time empl.)"
My job is 48 months (allowing for 1 months hols which is hard to get) a year x 5 days a week = 240 days
jahn

 

[ocelad]

Hi everyone

I'm only new to PI (and this wonderful forum) and I guess at the moment I am a wage slave. I work reasonably long hours, but I can't complain about my pay; and it's certainly helping make some dents in my mortgage.

Hopefully in around 5-6 years I'll have paid my own home off which, by my reckoning, will allow me to slow down a little. And with any luck in 15 years' time I'll be ready to retire. So I'm prepared to make some sacrifices in anticipation of an easier life just around the corner.

I'm still amazed at how my thinking has changed in recent times. Eighteen months ago I would not have been terribly impressed with a modest pay rise of $2-3K p.a. Most people I know would blow it on another holiday, a leather lounge, etc., but these days to me that represents the annual holding costs of another property.

(As an aside, I once read a quote which has provided a lot of motivation for me. I can't remember where I saw it and I'm paraphrasing, but it basically said, "Live simply, have few wants.")

To me the really exciting thing was the realisation that I don't have to be chained to my desk for another 30 years if I don't want to be. Provided things go well I'll travelling the country... while my workmates are still crawling to the boss.

Anyway, these are just my humble thoughts.

Cheers

ocelad