CBA Valuation - are they undervaluing properties?
- Thread starter sash
- Start date
Since when? They're awful!
I read this opinion time and time again here.
In nearly 20,000 valuations I have undertaken, probably close to 5,000 for the CBA alone, I have NEVER once been asked or pressured to be conservative on any valuation I have done.
I have been pressured in the past by managers to raise figures, yes even by CBA area managers, but have never been asked to undervalue a property.
If I was ever asked to undervalue a property it would get the same action as when I am asked to increase a figure on a property, which in the absence of any better sales evidence than I have is ..... nothing.
RightValue
Here's my little experience with Which Bank recently...
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php?p=754016&postcount=129
http://www.somersoft.com/forums/showpost.php?p=754016&postcount=129
Mate...I have an email trail which would make you tear with laughter.
I have had some robust conversations...sure I have peppered with a few expletives out of frustration..but nothing aggressive.
I doubt the top end executive would have constructed that...if they did they should be fired on the spot!!! Probably one of brainless idiots they employ.
Still reeling from that response......
I have tucked away the emails and am keeping them so that I can strategically use them at some point!
Group Executive is a "top end" executive. Sounds to me like they are very happy to let you go. The email looked appropriate and to the point.
Hmmmm...you guys are Big 4 banks dream....you want very little.
To put it in perspective...when I shot back a response back to Ross McEwan...there an email indicating that they were prepared to forgive any exit fees. Very interesting indeed....I would post it but it contains alot of account information. They even reiterated Premium banking as an option.
The funny thing is that I plan to give them exactly what they want...remove all the loans with LVRs well below 80% and leave them with the 97% lends. I suspect many customers are doing this ....when this happens they are going to be feeling the pinch as they have to increase the reserves to cover for this.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. I also plan to move the monthly 30k in cashflow to either NAB or ANZ....this again affects their deposits which they are moving to in order to reduce their reliance on foreign funding.
At the end of the day I don't really care...if I don't get what I want I move. Welcome to capitalism....but to think people on this site just take what is dished by clowns in banks is disappointing.
Bear in the mind the CBA was the bank who denied that they had any responsibility for the Storm Financial victims. Then Ralph Norris and crew had to retract their position and settle it....probably when their Legal counsel realised the strength of the class action. Ralph was also a public relations disaster to the point someone had to gag him when he was opening his mouth about the 45 basis point increase last year. If that is not arrogance then I don't know what is. The NAB CEO Cameron Clyne might be younger but is a lot more sophisticated....his "break up" campaign was brilliant if just smoke an mirrors but it is working.
Remember also this is the bank that irresponsibly lent to FHB...now the birds are coming to roost. Instead of differentiating between good risk customers and high risk customers they put all customer into on basket.
Judging by the number of PMs I am getting I am not alone in this regards.
Bayview your story is a classic.....that is just gold!
As for McEwan writing that email....he needs a pair of Kangaroo balls.....I doubt he wrote it...he would be way too busy.
Just by us discussing this is going to be bad for CBA as it will show up on Google. Judgin by the number of people viewing this thread.....that in itself is like me telling 500 people about my bad experience....if they tell another 5 people...anyway you get the picture....
To put it in perspective...when I shot back a response back to Ross McEwan...there an email indicating that they were prepared to forgive any exit fees. Very interesting indeed....I would post it but it contains alot of account information. They even reiterated Premium banking as an option.
The funny thing is that I plan to give them exactly what they want...remove all the loans with LVRs well below 80% and leave them with the 97% lends. I suspect many customers are doing this ....when this happens they are going to be feeling the pinch as they have to increase the reserves to cover for this.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. I also plan to move the monthly 30k in cashflow to either NAB or ANZ....this again affects their deposits which they are moving to in order to reduce their reliance on foreign funding.
At the end of the day I don't really care...if I don't get what I want I move. Welcome to capitalism....but to think people on this site just take what is dished by clowns in banks is disappointing.
Bear in the mind the CBA was the bank who denied that they had any responsibility for the Storm Financial victims. Then Ralph Norris and crew had to retract their position and settle it....probably when their Legal counsel realised the strength of the class action. Ralph was also a public relations disaster to the point someone had to gag him when he was opening his mouth about the 45 basis point increase last year. If that is not arrogance then I don't know what is. The NAB CEO Cameron Clyne might be younger but is a lot more sophisticated....his "break up" campaign was brilliant if just smoke an mirrors but it is working.
Remember also this is the bank that irresponsibly lent to FHB...now the birds are coming to roost. Instead of differentiating between good risk customers and high risk customers they put all customer into on basket.
Judging by the number of PMs I am getting I am not alone in this regards.
Bayview your story is a classic.....that is just gold!
As for McEwan writing that email....he needs a pair of Kangaroo balls.....I doubt he wrote it...he would be way too busy.
Just by us discussing this is going to be bad for CBA as it will show up on Google.
Judgin by the number of people viewing this thread.....that in itself is like me telling 500 people about my bad experience....if they tell another 5 people...anyway you get the picture....Reality is some customers are more trouble than they are worth. Sounds like you are one of them
'The customer is always right' is not always good business practice.
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To be honest it sounds like you've got a bit of a chip on your shoulder about CBA's practices, perhaps it's best that you do move on.
Pretty confusing angle you are taking suggesting that CBA dished out the problem. From what I can gather it appears an independent valuer has caused the issue and you have tried to blackmail the bank into getting what you want... what am I missing?
Pretty confusing angle you are taking suggesting that CBA dished out the problem. From what I can gather it appears an independent valuer has caused the issue and you have tried to blackmail the bank into getting what you want... what am I missing?
Hmmm.....blackmail...chip on shoulder.....sounds like a good storyline for a Underbelly series....
In all seriousness....are you really naive to think that an organization the size of CBA does not have influence over valuers??? Of course they do...they pay the valuers salaries....
As for blackmailing the bank...it was them who undervalued the loan...then they thought they would pressure on me by taking 1.5 weeks to get the valuation back to the purchase. Who are they kidding....in the meantime I got a loan approved by the NAB ....and have moved the settlement date despite the CBA thinking that I could not do it with that organization ( a government authority).
So who is blackmailing whom??? Have you read Bayview's story...RumpleElf's story...and some of the people PMing have said the same thing.
Persistence pays off......
In all seriousness....are you really naive to think that an organization the size of CBA does not have influence over valuers??? Of course they do...they pay the valuers salaries....
As for blackmailing the bank...it was them who undervalued the loan...then they thought they would pressure on me by taking 1.5 weeks to get the valuation back to the purchase. Who are they kidding....in the meantime I got a loan approved by the NAB ....and have moved the settlement date despite the CBA thinking that I could not do it with that organization ( a government authority).
So who is blackmailing whom??? Have you read Bayview's story...RumpleElf's story...and some of the people PMing have said the same thing.
Persistence pays off......
we are getting very close to conspiracy theory here.
I have had my stoushes with valuers ( people = humans) even some vals companies ( one of whom consistently uses the lower quartile of comp sales they can possibly find), but I have yet to find any evidence of any lenders asking for downgrades on vals per se. This is especially so where a lender uses the valex system ( which I dislike for other reasons)
Maybe my experience of a few thousand vals is just different, and times have changed.
Im not arguing that diff valuers can come up with diff results, thats the nature of valuations, its not an exact science.
ta
rolf
I have had my stoushes with valuers ( people = humans) even some vals companies ( one of whom consistently uses the lower quartile of comp sales they can possibly find), but I have yet to find any evidence of any lenders asking for downgrades on vals per se. This is especially so where a lender uses the valex system ( which I dislike for other reasons)
Maybe my experience of a few thousand vals is just different, and times have changed.
Im not arguing that diff valuers can come up with diff results, thats the nature of valuations, its not an exact science.
ta
rolf
Another possibility is when buying value in the sense of potential subdivision or yield it is often the case that you work in an illiquid part of our residential market. I would expect that around here people are pushing the limits on getting value and this may mean buying that positively geared property in a country town where 2 props sell every year or buying that acreage with development potential or a duel oc potential house on the fringe of a metro area.
These same illiquid markets are ones that valuers have to be cagey about to protect themselves. Once they are looking at either old sales or sales from other suburbs or in the case of very exotic commerial properties sometimes even sales from another state, simply because it is the only other property of its type to be sold in years, it becomes more black box material and re-valuation by a second valuer could yield quite wildly differing results.
The bulk standard house in a metro area; do the valuation 10 times with 10 different valuers and in theory at least they should all be pretty close and I imagine in practice this is close to the case.
Maybe a thread detailing peoples values where they had them challenged would be worthwhile. Again I would guess that the more illiquid the market it is in the more wild the values might be.
I reckon it could be that somersofters have more issues with valuers ironically because they hunt for good value and this potentially puts them into more illiquid markets where a sller is struggling to sell and so has dropped price and still not met a buyer as none exist till an investor sees the potential.
One can forgive a valuer for looking at such a one off sale and asking themselves is this really the market? Can't they?
I am interested in all this as I now have finance approved with the combank for a potenial move later in the year (possibly as early as next month) and one of the levers I want to use into the market is pressing for a good deal by offering auction conditions or at least an unconditional offer at any rate. I am in all sorts of trouble if it comes up 40k or 50k below value. Losing 50k because you cannot settle is not something I am real keen on...
Worst part is stumping up the extra cash does not even help your LVR. You might stump up the first 80k to meet the 20% deposit to avoid LMI than you have to stump up another 40k because the value fell 40k short. You still have an LVR of 0.8 as far as the bank is concerned though irrespective of the 30% of the price you paid in cash.
The lady who did the on the spot pre-approval while I sat there (pretty impressed with that, pushed a button as soon as I signed the permission form and 5 minutes later she prints out a letter!) asked me why am I worried about the valuation so much, I don't intend to overpay do I? I could direct her here to this thread now I guess for my reasons for concern! Of course this is not the first such thread here and likelty not to be the last, I just hope I don't end up starting one such thread in the not too distant future...
I definitely feel for anyone who gets hit by this as I cannot think of anything worse happening during the settlement period than having to hunt for last minute finance. I imagine that is the situation when the mortgage brokers here get some pretty demanding clientelle...
These same illiquid markets are ones that valuers have to be cagey about to protect themselves. Once they are looking at either old sales or sales from other suburbs or in the case of very exotic commerial properties sometimes even sales from another state, simply because it is the only other property of its type to be sold in years, it becomes more black box material and re-valuation by a second valuer could yield quite wildly differing results.
The bulk standard house in a metro area; do the valuation 10 times with 10 different valuers and in theory at least they should all be pretty close and I imagine in practice this is close to the case.
Maybe a thread detailing peoples values where they had them challenged would be worthwhile. Again I would guess that the more illiquid the market it is in the more wild the values might be.
I reckon it could be that somersofters have more issues with valuers ironically because they hunt for good value
and this potentially puts them into more illiquid markets where a sller is struggling to sell and so has dropped price and still not met a buyer as none exist till an investor sees the potential. One can forgive a valuer for looking at such a one off sale and asking themselves is this really the market? Can't they?
I am interested in all this as I now have finance approved with the combank
for a potenial move later in the year (possibly as early as next month) and one of the levers I want to use into the market is pressing for a good deal by offering auction conditions or at least an unconditional offer at any rate. I am in all sorts of trouble if it comes up 40k or 50k below value. Losing 50k because you cannot settle is not something I am real keen on... Worst part is stumping up the extra cash does not even help your LVR. You might stump up the first 80k to meet the 20% deposit to avoid LMI than you have to stump up another 40k because the value fell 40k short. You still have an LVR of 0.8 as far as the bank is concerned though irrespective of the 30% of the price you paid in cash.
The lady who did the on the spot pre-approval while I sat there (pretty impressed with that, pushed a button as soon as I signed the permission form and 5 minutes later she prints out a letter!) asked me why am I worried about the valuation so much, I don't intend to overpay do I? I could direct her here to this thread now I guess for my reasons for concern! Of course this is not the first such thread here and likelty not to be the last, I just hope I don't end up starting one such thread in the not too distant future...
I definitely feel for anyone who gets hit by this as I cannot think of anything worse happening during the settlement period than having to hunt for last minute finance. I imagine that is the situation when the mortgage brokers here get some pretty demanding clientelle...
The things that peeved me the most with my incident with SEEBEEAAY were
1. the guy handling our account/loans had absolutely no idea how much business we put through their Company when I spoke to him about the $15k shortfall (they reduced the amount we were going to borrow by this amount - an amount we need to finish the build). Our interest bill alone each year is more than his salary.
2. The fact they dropped this measely amount from the total, given the scale of our dealings with them.
Yeah; some will argue it is just business and they work on bottom lines and so on.
Bullcr@p.
I work on customer relations every single minute of every single working day, to try and keep the ones I have - especially the better and longer term ones...
Sometimes you have to give a bit to win the longer term results.
Cheating us out of $15k will cost them far more than this.
Thanks Sash; you've now fired up my belly just that little bit more to put extra pressure on the preeks to cut a bit off the percentage point they offer me if they want to keep my business.
1. the guy handling our account/loans had absolutely no idea how much business we put through their Company when I spoke to him about the $15k shortfall (they reduced the amount we were going to borrow by this amount - an amount we need to finish the build). Our interest bill alone each year is more than his salary.
2. The fact they dropped this measely amount from the total, given the scale of our dealings with them.
Yeah; some will argue it is just business and they work on bottom lines and so on.
Bullcr@p.
I work on customer relations every single minute of every single working day, to try and keep the ones I have - especially the better and longer term ones...
Sometimes you have to give a bit to win the longer term results.
Cheating us out of $15k will cost them far more than this.
Thanks Sash; you've now fired up my belly just that little bit more to put extra pressure on the preeks to cut a bit off the percentage point they offer me if they want to keep my business.
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I needed an additional $25,000 to finish my subdivision with my initial plan being of getting a personal loan to cover in the short term.
Enter bank man suggesting I draw an additional 5% equity out taking it to 85% (no lmi).
Sounds good exept the reval come in 5% lower.
When passing said valuer a few weeks later I asked him why I wasted my time with this.
He said in the past they would alighn with suggested value if within a 5% or so band both up or down. Now " under direction" there is no budge.
Enter bank man suggesting I draw an additional 5% equity out taking it to 85% (no lmi).
Sounds good exept the reval come in 5% lower.
When passing said valuer a few weeks later I asked him why I wasted my time with this.
He said in the past they would alighn with suggested value if within a 5% or so band both up or down. Now " under direction" there is no budge.
Absolutely spot on...customer relationships are far more important than measly loan amounts...in my case it was over 7.5k!
The problem most Australians just accept it.......yet these are the same people who whinge when there is another interest rate.
I have a very long memory...once the damage is done that is it. If more customers thought along these lines....the banks would be more maleable. To use a point and is when Telstra burnt me...they keep calling to rejoin....will never go back. I think there are quite a few customers like me.
CBA had about $1m of my loans this represents about 25k on a interest margin of 2.5%. Of this they pay salaries, rents, and make their profit.
Wonder how many other people they are angering??
The problem most Australians just accept it.......yet these are the same people who whinge when there is another interest rate.
I have a very long memory...once the damage is done that is it. If more customers thought along these lines....the banks would be more maleable. To use a point and is when Telstra burnt me...they keep calling to rejoin....will never go back. I think there are quite a few customers like me.
CBA had about $1m of my loans this represents about 25k on a interest margin of 2.5%. Of this they pay salaries, rents, and make their profit.
Wonder how many other people they are angering??
I work on customer relations every single minute of every single working day, to try and keep the ones I have - especially the better and longer term ones...
Sometimes you have to give a bit to win the longer term results.
Cheating us out of $15k will cost them far more than this.
Thanks Sash; you've now fired up my belly just that little bit more to put extra pressure on the preeks to cut a bit off the percentage point they offer me if they want to keep my business.
Coprorates dont work this way....... the nature of the delegation process means thate every little silo has its own little stuff to look after, and doesnt have much interest ( or incentive) to look aftert things that arent in their silo.
Your service business is YOUR business, and thats one of the core differences, and that concpet relates bck to one of my favourites is that there are no GOOD banks/lenders, there are only good people.
The only way we find we can get across those silos is to have some good key relationships with the lenders that have the WILLINGNESS and the capacity to make things happen. If one cant do that, you are at the mercy of the systems.
ta
rolf
Hmmmm...you guys are Big 4 banks dream....you want very little.
To put it in perspective...when I shot back a response back to Ross McEwan...there an email indicating that they were prepared to forgive any exit fees. Very interesting indeed....I would post it but it contains alot of account information. They even reiterated Premium banking as an option.
The funny thing is that I plan to give them exactly what they want...remove all the loans with LVRs well below 80% and leave them with the 97% lends. I suspect many customers are doing this ....when this happens they are going to be feeling the pinch as they have to increase the reserves to cover for this.
There is more than one way to skin a cat. I also plan to move the monthly 30k in cashflow to either NAB or ANZ....this again affects their deposits which they are moving to in order to reduce their reliance on foreign funding.
At the end of the day I don't really care...if I don't get what I want I move. Welcome to capitalism....but to think people on this site just take what is dished by clowns in banks is disappointing.
Bear in the mind the CBA was the bank who denied that they had any responsibility for the Storm Financial victims. Then Ralph Norris and crew had to retract their position and settle it....probably when their Legal counsel realised the strength of the class action. Ralph was also a public relations disaster to the point someone had to gag him when he was opening his mouth about the 45 basis point increase last year. If that is not arrogance then I don't know what is. The NAB CEO Cameron Clyne might be younger but is a lot more sophisticated....his "break up" campaign was brilliant if just smoke an mirrors but it is working.
Remember also this is the bank that irresponsibly lent to FHB...now the birds are coming to roost. Instead of differentiating between good risk customers and high risk customers they put all customer into on basket.
Judging by the number of PMs I am getting I am not alone in this regards.
Bayview your story is a classic.....that is just gold!
As for McEwan writing that email....he needs a pair of Kangaroo balls.....I doubt he wrote it...he would be way too busy.
Just by us discussing this is going to be bad for CBA as it will show up on Google.
You remind me of a friend who spent 6 months secretly planning to divorce her husband and went into paroxysms of rage when he agreed enthusiastically the moment she raised the topic.
They called your bluff....move on.
Not quite.....it appears they were in the process of giving over 1% for one of my loan which is on a fixed rate. Now all I need to do it is to argue the case to apply to all my loans.
Mate you give up way to easily......persistance is important....otherwise you start things and never complete them. Imagine if I just gave up on my 3rd property after a tenant trashed it.
I figure if I get what I want off the banks...this will translate to savings of 8-10k per annum. The equivalent of repaying a 150k loan.
Horses for courses....you run the business the way you want and I will run mine the way I want.
Oh....by the way I have had bluff called...I tend move my business lock stock and barrell.
Mate you give up way to easily......persistance is important....otherwise you start things and never complete them. Imagine if I just gave up on my 3rd property after a tenant trashed it.
I figure if I get what I want off the banks...this will translate to savings of 8-10k per annum. The equivalent of repaying a 150k loan.
Horses for courses....you run the business the way you want and I will run mine the way I want.
Oh....by the way I have had bluff called...I tend move my business lock stock and barrell.
I'm having the same problem with CBA atm. I asked for a desktop val for a topup recently on my first IP to leapfrog to my second. The valuation came in at the price I paid it for last year even though the median price was above and currently is $40k above what I paid with recent sales to prove it. Not sure what to do now; save up for another deposit where I only need 5% to get my next IP or if it is wise to switch banks (which would be unfortunate as it is through a broker who is nice, but at the end of the day they just can't help me)..
Hi OD
A Customer ordered valuation before application is the way to go here.
I reckon you could possibly still get that full val to over-ride their desktop
ta
rolf
How do you order one of those?
I just get a flat "No". Our valuation from 2008 stands, and they Will Not Revalue after sending that valuer out last year.
Is there a timeframe or something that needs to pass from the last time a valuer came out? Not that it is likely to matter, we're hoping to sell the house to get the equity out since CBA won't cooperate, and if that fails we'll just save up the rent for a while until we have a deposit for something else.
This type of valuation is available via the broker channel only.
It's also discounted as well.
Regards
Michael
