Ah, so you have done that? I got the impression your trusts were for holding property. I have obviously mis-read somewhere.
Thanks!
Ah, so you have done that? I got the impression your trusts were for holding property. I have obviously mis-read somewhere.
Thanks!
Hi there, Sorry, I am in way too much of a rush these days and am not taking the proper time to clearify things. Not good and irresponsible of me!
I have my first IP in both names....wasn't sure what I was doing back then!
But have the other properties in trusts. My main reason was for asset protection and yes they were for holding property.
Interesting Austini, I think my structure has become too complicated as you say. I'm in the processing of selling down, so this ought to unravel a few things!
Regards JO
I have tow accountants one for my personal stuff and recently acquired a more property/share savy accountant who deals with the Asian community in Chatswood for a company I set-up. The later is a younger lady and the former is almost 60...so I need to have a transition plan if he retires...
The old accoutant will not touch trusts and complex set-ups and says they are ...get ready for this....TOO EXPENSIVE TO MAINTAIN ...at least he is honest. He is okay but have caught out some minor mistakes over the years but only less than $100. He also believes that accountants who deal in this are more prone to ATO scrutiny.
Cheers
Sash
The old accoutant will not touch trusts and complex set-ups and says they are ...get ready for this....TOO EXPENSIVE TO MAINTAIN ...at least he is honest. He is okay but have caught out some minor mistakes over the years but only less than $100. He also believes that accountants who deal in this are more prone to ATO scrutiny.
Cheers
Sash
I had a really bad experience with Chan & Naylor. They had to refund our money but we still lost out badly.
It took their finance department almost 6 months to get a one loan approved and another ended up being knocked back. They told us there would be no problems at all. They told us approx 6 weeks.
It took so long I had to knock back a dream job because I needed to stay in employment whilst the app was being processed. I was gutted when the loan that the ANZ guy would have approved and that C&N told us that there would be no problems was knocked back. No loan. No dream job.
We also set up a trust with them for the other loan. We shelled out over 3 grand but the loan for this IP kept blowing out and blowing out. We had to keep delaying the settlement. When it came to the crunch and we had to settle, the lender wouldn't lend with the trust structure so we had to settle without the trust structure.
They refunded most of the money for the trust and bought the company we set up off us, but it inconvenienced so much that I vow to warn anyone who considers going through them. We had 4 friends who are couples who wanted to go see them after we talked them up. About 4 months into the loan process we urged them to go elsewhere.
It took their finance department almost 6 months to get a one loan approved and another ended up being knocked back. They told us there would be no problems at all. They told us approx 6 weeks.
It took so long I had to knock back a dream job because I needed to stay in employment whilst the app was being processed. I was gutted when the loan that the ANZ guy would have approved and that C&N told us that there would be no problems was knocked back. No loan. No dream job.
We also set up a trust with them for the other loan. We shelled out over 3 grand but the loan for this IP kept blowing out and blowing out. We had to keep delaying the settlement. When it came to the crunch and we had to settle, the lender wouldn't lend with the trust structure so we had to settle without the trust structure.
They refunded most of the money for the trust and bought the company we set up off us, but it inconvenienced so much that I vow to warn anyone who considers going through them. We had 4 friends who are couples who wanted to go see them after we talked them up. About 4 months into the loan process we urged them to go elsewhere.
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Hiya
Sad to hear of that. Id like to tease out a bit more detail here, not to defend anyone, simply to show people what they may need to look out for so it doesnt end up in tears
In general, there is a bit more to a trust loan than doing the servicing though, especially with anz, and if there is LMI involved, then its a diff kettle of fish.
With 6 mths going under the bridge thered have to be more than just some continual mistakes. What was the reason that ANZ provided for declining the loan ?
ta
rolf
Sad to hear of that. Id like to tease out a bit more detail here, not to defend anyone, simply to show people what they may need to look out for so it doesnt end up in tears
In general, there is a bit more to a trust loan than doing the servicing though, especially with anz, and if there is LMI involved, then its a diff kettle of fish.
With 6 mths going under the bridge thered have to be more than just some continual mistakes. What was the reason that ANZ provided for declining the loan ?
ta
rolf
No - I was a victim of C+N gross incompetence.
* I'm not sure why the mods insist on removing that. I have clear proof and they have admitted it. If they want to sue me, good luck - I have ALL the correspodance. No libel here. Just reporting what mistakes they admitted they made.
Sounds like you're doubting my story? They wouldn't have given me back the $3000 if there was any reasonable doubt.
I am very aware that they will see what I have posted and the truth is that they can't do a thing about it. It happened. We have over 6 months worth of email trails. They cannot stop me from giving peole a very honest description of our dealings with them.
And I do respect you have doubts - I would have never imagined that this company let alone any company could have been that incompetent. Honestly, it defied belief. It was mistake after mistake after mistake.
The only "incompetence" you mention is problems raising a loan through a trust structure.
If that is the case, check out numerous threads on this subject and you will see problems arising with lenders tightening up their practices.
Cheers,
Rob
Ah Huh!
Doesn't year fly by fast.
Hi awesome, just to clarify, do you know that there is a Finance Dept at C&N called Chan & Naylor Finance as well as their Accounting Department. Rolf is right and we have too little details to judge whether the bank was in err or the actual Finance Department.
I had a friend that I referred to C&N also have a similar problem and she was compensated in a similar scenario.
I hear what you are saying and your point is : It's Chan & Naylor.
I now have a fantastic new accountant referred to me my Propertunity.
Regards JO
Doesn't year fly by fast.
Hi awesome, just to clarify, do you know that there is a Finance Dept at C&N called Chan & Naylor Finance as well as their Accounting Department. Rolf is right and we have too little details to judge whether the bank was in err or the actual Finance Department.
I had a friend that I referred to C&N also have a similar problem and she was compensated in a similar scenario.
I hear what you are saying and your point is : It's Chan & Naylor.
I now have a fantastic new accountant referred to me my Propertunity.
Regards JO
Hiya AW
Not doubting your experience at all, nor do I have any business or other association with C&N.
What was the reason the loan was declined by the ANZ though ? What sort of mistake after mistake are we talking about here that would cause a full doc loan not to be approved ? Im here to learn too not just provide my 2 bobs worth. Every experience from someone else I can learn from is one I dont have to put my clients through
On a separate note, for me at least, a client rebate or an ex-gratia payment is indeed not an admittance of responsability. I know that because we shell out tens of thousands each year due to bank stuff ups from our margins. Our fault, sure, sometimes we err too, we are human, but in most cases, there are things that we have zip control over that isnt the clients fault either.
ta
rolf
Not doubting your experience at all, nor do I have any business or other association with C&N.
What was the reason the loan was declined by the ANZ though ? What sort of mistake after mistake are we talking about here that would cause a full doc loan not to be approved ? Im here to learn too not just provide my 2 bobs worth. Every experience from someone else I can learn from is one I dont have to put my clients through
On a separate note, for me at least, a client rebate or an ex-gratia payment is indeed not an admittance of responsability. I know that because we shell out tens of thousands each year due to bank stuff ups from our margins. Our fault, sure, sometimes we err too, we are human, but in most cases, there are things that we have zip control over that isnt the clients fault either.
ta
rolf
So if that was the problem do you think they would have handed me back $3000?
Ah Huh!
Doesn't year fly by fast.
Hi awesome, just to clarify, do you know that there is a Finance Dept at C&N called Chan & Naylor Finance as well as their Accounting Department. Rolf is right and we have too little details to judge whether the bank was in err or the actual Finance Department.
Actually, he is not right. At all. They made mistakes on their side and admitted as much and refunded us $3000.
I'm not sure how you can sit there and dispute that?
That's great, but I just told you it was C+N's fault and you are trying to tell me I am mistaken? What is your agenda?
When I have time to corelate the whole lot I will post it. But rest assured they made bungle after bungle after bungle. It wasn't the bank. And I'm not guessing here either. C+N made mistake after mistake after mistake.
I now have a fantastic new accountant referred to me my Propertunity.
Regards JO
JO, would you care to share, publicly or even just by PM
??
Pure BS.
That's what they want people to think.
There's plenty good accountants out in the burbs, though even more not so good, that manage trusts.
The whole marketing plan of the those high flying deed merchants relies on "they say don't do it because they don't know how" which is also BS.
You can buy the deed off them (if you really want to), and then get someone to manage it at a fraction of the cost.
And don't be lulled into the "protected asset" hype if your borrowing to buy the assets in the trust, borrowing to buy trust units, or lending money to the trust.
And the tax deductions are now also being questioned.
PB,
You have such a way with words and of course, are correct.
I have had some expensive lessons in regards to Trusts. VERY expensive.
I did think I was protecting my assets and receiving professional advice.
Yes, the deductions are now being questioned. I heard this from my accountant on Friday.
Gordon Farkus, I will PM his details.
Regards JO
You have such a way with words and of course, are correct.
I have had some expensive lessons in regards to Trusts. VERY expensive.
I did think I was protecting my assets and receiving professional advice.
Yes, the deductions are now being questioned. I heard this from my accountant on Friday.
Gordon Farkus, I will PM his details.
Regards JO
I would like to address the issues raised by "Awesome Wells" as there are a very good lessons for all investors about the importance of having a plan and sticking to it.
Firstly I would like to state that I was not the particular broker involved with this application but I do have actual knowledge of what occurred, having assisted in Chan & Naylor Finance’s attempts to find a solution with the lender. There are always 2 sides to the story.
To clarify the facts;
Chan & Naylor (Finance) was approached AFTER the contract of sale had already been signed in your personal name “and/or nominee.”
After meeting with Chan & Naylor and after your solicitor initially advised you that the existing contract of sale could be redrawn, A Trust was set up with your agreement. You then took it upon yourselves to set up a company to act as the “trustee company” which had a wrong start date, meaning the company was started after the exchange of contracts.
Consequently the vendor was not willing/ able to redraw the contract of sale into the trust name and issue a new contract in the name of the trustee company. Then as a result of your solicitor not understanding the lenders requirements and believing he could simply supply a letter of nomination the issue was not pressed.
The problem for the lender was “How could you have purchased a property intending to nominate a trustee and trust if the trustee company and trust was not set up at the time of purchase?”
The answer is you can’t. And while solicitors may argue the legal points of law and in this case a that a letter of nomination would have sufficed, lenders don’t really care about anything other than protecting themselves. The lender refusing the letter of nomination that your solicitor offered then gave as their only alternative, redrawing a new contract of sale.. However the vendor would not agree to this.
Had the trustee company and Trust been set up prior to the property being purchased – The lender would not have had a problem. If the correct company was setup as the trustee with the correct start date you would not have had a problem.
So, even though Chan & Naylor had requested a number of times that you check with your solicitor that a new contract of sale could be issued and we were assured that it was possible, as a show of “good faith”, Chan & Naylor & Chan & Naylor Finance chose to repay all the expenses incurred in setting up the trust. We did not have to do that as the calamity of problem was not of our doing.
You could have used the trust for your next property purchase. Additionally, Chan & Naylor even purchased from you the trustee company that you yourself set up. Again as an act of “good faith”. We did not have to do that.
Rather than looking at this as a bad experience, it should be viewed as a cautionary tale of the importance of setting up the correct structure prior to purchasing a property and ensuring the professionals you use are all on the same page.
I spend a countless number of hours every day with clients who have given no preliminary thought to the structure of their purchase and want to try and change it after they have purchased or are half way through a development when they discover the tax implications of what they are doing are onerous or when they decide they do not really want to be in partnership with.
Talk to your accountant, talk to your broker, talk to your solicitor before you purchase and make sure you “Project Manage” the task of purchasing the property. Each professional simply provides a task (Lender provides the loan, solicitor provides conveyancing, accountant provides tax and structure advice) and its up to the purchaser to project manage all the professionals. Similar to what a builder does with all the tradesmen.
Alternatively use a Buyers Agent who will do the “project Managing” for you.
It’s sometimes just too late once you’ve signed the contract of sale!
Firstly I would like to state that I was not the particular broker involved with this application but I do have actual knowledge of what occurred, having assisted in Chan & Naylor Finance’s attempts to find a solution with the lender. There are always 2 sides to the story.
To clarify the facts;
Chan & Naylor (Finance) was approached AFTER the contract of sale had already been signed in your personal name “and/or nominee.”
After meeting with Chan & Naylor and after your solicitor initially advised you that the existing contract of sale could be redrawn, A Trust was set up with your agreement. You then took it upon yourselves to set up a company to act as the “trustee company” which had a wrong start date, meaning the company was started after the exchange of contracts.
Consequently the vendor was not willing/ able to redraw the contract of sale into the trust name and issue a new contract in the name of the trustee company. Then as a result of your solicitor not understanding the lenders requirements and believing he could simply supply a letter of nomination the issue was not pressed.
The problem for the lender was “How could you have purchased a property intending to nominate a trustee and trust if the trustee company and trust was not set up at the time of purchase?”
The answer is you can’t. And while solicitors may argue the legal points of law and in this case a that a letter of nomination would have sufficed, lenders don’t really care about anything other than protecting themselves. The lender refusing the letter of nomination that your solicitor offered then gave as their only alternative, redrawing a new contract of sale.. However the vendor would not agree to this.
Had the trustee company and Trust been set up prior to the property being purchased – The lender would not have had a problem. If the correct company was setup as the trustee with the correct start date you would not have had a problem.
So, even though Chan & Naylor had requested a number of times that you check with your solicitor that a new contract of sale could be issued and we were assured that it was possible, as a show of “good faith”, Chan & Naylor & Chan & Naylor Finance chose to repay all the expenses incurred in setting up the trust. We did not have to do that as the calamity of problem was not of our doing.
You could have used the trust for your next property purchase. Additionally, Chan & Naylor even purchased from you the trustee company that you yourself set up. Again as an act of “good faith”. We did not have to do that.
Rather than looking at this as a bad experience, it should be viewed as a cautionary tale of the importance of setting up the correct structure prior to purchasing a property and ensuring the professionals you use are all on the same page.
I spend a countless number of hours every day with clients who have given no preliminary thought to the structure of their purchase and want to try and change it after they have purchased or are half way through a development when they discover the tax implications of what they are doing are onerous or when they decide they do not really want to be in partnership with.
Talk to your accountant, talk to your broker, talk to your solicitor before you purchase and make sure you “Project Manage” the task of purchasing the property. Each professional simply provides a task (Lender provides the loan, solicitor provides conveyancing, accountant provides tax and structure advice) and its up to the purchaser to project manage all the professionals. Similar to what a builder does with all the tradesmen.
Alternatively use a Buyers Agent who will do the “project Managing” for you.
It’s sometimes just too late once you’ve signed the contract of sale!
Albertus, thanks for taking the time to clarify this situation. If the situation is as you portray (not that I doubt you, but to give aw the chance to present a contrary position), then it is a shame that your gesture of good faith would be used against you, and portrayed as an admission of liability or incompetence.
Hi Albertus,
You raise many excellent points in your post. Seeking out professional advice is crucial - especially to do with trust structures and the like. As you state below, tying all the information together is the job of the investor - not always an easy one, but necessary all the same. Good advice regarding a BA too - who will help with the process if necessary.
Regards Jason.
You raise many excellent points in your post. Seeking out professional advice is crucial - especially to do with trust structures and the like. As you state below, tying all the information together is the job of the investor - not always an easy one, but necessary all the same. Good advice regarding a BA too - who will help with the process if necessary.
Regards Jason.
