citibank mortgage power LOC?????

Hi,
I will try and keep this brief and as understanding as possible.

I currently have a portfolio loan with st george.
PPOR 130k LOC variable and an IO sub account for 175k for my investment.
all rents and monies go into the ppor acc and then the credit card direct debits at the end of the month.

I had a representative of citibank call around and believes his system is better.

Citibank wants to add the 2 loans together, 130 + 175 = 305k LOC. Then work out the % of the loan that would be investment loan. By doing this both loans will be reducing and at a quicker rate.

I explained my concerns about cross colateralisation but he guarantees that only one property would be used for security.

I will have to run this by my accountant, but does this sound like it would work??

cheers
 
Hi Voodoo

Absolute Rubbish :)

Stay where you are, or look to sit with an independent broker if looking at alternatives - mono product sales people need to make all sorts of nutso claims including lumping deductible and non deductible debt into one.

Seems like a silly solution to me that will result in more paperwork and polluting your deductible debt with non deductible debt, further compounded by the fact your are probably pooling all +ve income in the LOC - see recent post buy Julia on Locs.



ta

rolf
 
Hi Rolf
thanks for the reply,
I do like the portfolio I am on but these guys ring up persisting that they can save me thousands and years off my mortgage so i put them to the test and they can never match it.

thanks again
 
I took out a Citibank LOC about the same year they funded Noah's project. At the time it was strictly a biz loan and I have nothing but praise for the facility or the company.

Citi then sold to a finance company and withdrew from the Aussie market. It may have been AGC but they were fraudulent and I bailed out.

The Citi you would deal with today is not the same one I dealt with then but they may still have merit.

BTW What I loved about my LOC then was that it was tied to the 90day bank bill. When rates soared over 20% in the '80s this facility never rose above 15%. If such a rate guarantee was on offer today I would seriously look at it.

Thommo
 
Rolf

You are bang on Colonial's rate is 1.5% above their LOC Ref Rate which at the moment is looking exensive at 5.95% + 1.5%.
 
Voodoo,
the Citibank rep is absolutely wrong, by combining the 2 loans you could be in a position where you dilute the usage of the funds (personal and investment debts are mixed) and may end up having trouble to proof tax-deductibility.

IMHO the Westpac Equity Access Loan or the ANZ Equity Manager are far better products then the St George Portfolio loan since they allow you interest capitalisation.

The other thing you may want to be aware of with Citibank is that they can securitise loans at their discrection.
 
I remember in mid 90s I had a LOC with Citibank and loved it and when I sold my house and wanted to transfer the loan to my new purchase, I was told that they would not renew the loan because they had brought in new rules based on research that certain suburbs would not experience capital growth and so would not lend for certain suburbs they considered risky. I have to laugh now because the house I bought tripled in value since then. So much for their research and risk reduction strategies. They must have lost so much business during that time (well they lost mine) !
 
Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate the valuable info on this site.

The rep came in real confident to start with but then I started to realise he was a bit green.
He did not agree with negative gearing.
He also questioned why the IP was in my name. (i am the sole income provider)
He also could not understand why I did not have a LOC on my IP.

He was really starting to confuse me. I had to pull out some of Jan Somers and Peter Spanns books and show him some facts to prove a few points.

Cheers
 
chook said:
They must have lost so much business during that time (well they lost mine) !
I think you would find they lost "Australia".

They simply folded their tent and rode off into the sunset about then. :D
 
voodoo said:
I currently have a portfolio loan with st george.
PPOR 130k LOC variable and an IO sub account for 175k for my investment.
all rents and monies go into the ppor acc and then the credit card direct debits at the end of the month.

I just wrote a very long and explanatory post and I was booted or timed out and it was lost. I wanted to ask why you would even use a LOC at all in your situation when there are much more benefits using a loan with offset account. It would certainly be cheaper in the medium to long term and extremely advantageous if you move into a new PPOR.
 
voodoo said:
He was really starting to confuse me. I had to pull out some of Jan Somers and Peter Spanns books and show him some facts to prove a few points.

Voodoo,

I hope you charged him for your time!

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Hi TMA,
I would not be able to live without the LOC because on paper I go backwards about $100 a week.
I am on one income I am starting to feel the pinch with everything on the rise lately.
I definately will not be changing PPOR in the near future and I must admit I know nothing about off set loans.
I am open to all suggestions as I have seen accountants, advisers and brokers and they all say I am structured to the best I can be and they can't help me.
My problem is cash flow as I have a bit of equity. My LVR is about 45%
cheers

Hi Acey,
yeah I should have charged him a fee, the only problem is he did not believe a word I said.
cheers
 
Hi Voodoo,

I will try and rewrite what I wrote last night if I can remember it all...

A LOC of credit usually costs you an annual fee and a higher interest rate. As I don't know your personal situation and it is rare to find a LOC at the same rate or cheaper than a standard loan, I will assume this applies to you. I will also assume that you are spending most of your money on personal expenditure and tap into your LOC occasionally for investment expenses.

My preferred structure...

Loan 1: $175,000 Interest Only (Variable or Fixed)
Loan 2: $130,000 Interest Only with Offset Account (Variable)

Just like you deposit all your income (every cent) from work and rent into your LOC, you deposit it into your Offset Account. You set up minimum monthly interest only repayments to Loan 1 and Loan 2 and your monthly credit card sweep. The amount on Loan 2 will vary depending on how much is sitting in the Offset Account but will still be automated.

The benefits of this are huge if you intend moving PPOR which you don't seem to be doing in the near future. The reason why is that when you do move, the amount owed on Loan 2 has not reduced and when you take your money out of the Offset Account, the full loan limit will become deductible instead of the reduced amount that would be available if using a LOC.

Other benefits include that you will have access to the cash from your Offset Account for expenditure, you can get set up for a single small upfront application fee and incur no ongoing costs. Best of all, the interest rate would be lower compared to a LOC (there are some exceptions where the LOC interest rate is the same but fees still apply).

In your particular situation, having such a low LVR, I would also suggest either increasing the limit on Loan 1 (if it has free redraw) or taking Loan 3. This should be set up to pay for all property related expenses and other deductible expenses as they fall due so you can deduct the interest on these additional expenses and only repay the interest until your non-deductible debt is gone.

In my opinion, using a LOC is only done to be 'fashionable'. The only argument in favour of a 'true' LOC is that they are perpetual (no set term). This is a moot point in my opinion as I have still not met anyone who has kept their loan with the one lender for more than 30 years.The average life of a loan these days before being paid out or refinanced to another lender is less than 4 years. The increased competition ensures people keep shopping for a better deal.

People may argue that having the cash so accessible is dangerous. I totally agree with this but access to funds in a LOC is just as accessible. If you are not good with money, you should have neither.

I think I have covered the main points and will add to this if I think it is important or asked.

Hope this helps.
 
T.M.A. said:
Hi Voodoo,

I will try and rewrite what I wrote last night if I can remember it all...

A LOC of credit usually costs you an annual fee and a higher interest rate. As I don't know your personal situation and it is rare to find a LOC at the same rate or cheaper than a standard loan, I will assume this applies to you. I will also assume that you are spending most of your money on personal expenditure and tap into your LOC occasionally for investment expenses.

My preferred structure...

Loan 1: $175,000 Interest Only (Variable or Fixed)
Loan 2: $130,000 Interest Only with Offset Account (Variable)

Just like you deposit all your income (every cent) from work and rent into your LOC, you deposit it into your Offset Account. You set up minimum monthly interest only repayments to Loan 1 and Loan 2 and your monthly credit card sweep. The amount on Loan 2 will vary depending on how much is sitting in the Offset Account but will still be automated.

The benefits of this are huge if you intend moving PPOR which you don't seem to be doing in the near future. The reason why is that when you do move, the amount owed on Loan 2 has not reduced and when you take your money out of the Offset Account, the full loan limit will become deductible instead of the reduced amount that would be available if using a LOC.

Other benefits include that you will have access to the cash from your Offset Account for expenditure, you can get set up for a single small upfront application fee and incur no ongoing costs. Best of all, the interest rate would be lower compared to a LOC (there are some exceptions where the LOC interest rate is the same but fees still apply).

In your particular situation, having such a low LVR, I would also suggest either increasing the limit on Loan 1 (if it has free redraw) or taking Loan 3. This should be set up to pay for all property related expenses and other deductible expenses as they fall due so you can deduct the interest on these additional expenses and only repay the interest until your non-deductible debt is gone.

In my opinion, using a LOC is only done to be 'fashionable'. The only argument in favour of a 'true' LOC is that they are perpetual (no set term). This is a moot point in my opinion as I have still not met anyone who has kept their loan with the one lender for more than 30 years.The average life of a loan these days before being paid out or refinanced to another lender is less than 4 years. The increased competition ensures people keep shopping for a better deal.

People may argue that having the cash so accessible is dangerous. I totally agree with this but access to funds in a LOC is just as accessible. If you are not good with money, you should have neither.

I think I have covered the main points and will add to this if I think it is important or asked.

Hope this helps.


Hi TMA,
This does sound interesting and yes I am on a higher Interest rate for LOC and I am spending most of my money on personal expenditure and tap into the LOC occasionally for investment expenses.
We are on a budget and are fairly good with our money.

If both loans are IO then how do we pay off the PPOR (loan 2)? and because I am virtually level pegging each month with my income and expenditure wouldnt my off set account be empty?
I currently have a LOC limit for 128k and at the moment I have used 110k so would I pull out the remaining 18k and put in an off set account or how does this work? who would be the best to talk to about this. :confused:

Thanks for the help TMA it is much appreciated

cheers
 
Hi Vodoo

Whom to talk to ...........

1. Not STG
2. Not citibank

Perhaps contact robert (TMA) especially of you are in Sydney. If not then let us know and Im sure the forum can line you up with someone local that can come and see you.

ta

rolf
 
voodoo said:
...and yes I am on a higher Interest rate for LOC and I am spending most of my money on personal expenditure and tap into the LOC occasionally for investment expenses.
We are on a budget and are fairly good with our money.

It will simplify working out your tax deductibility of debt if you keep deductible and non-deductible expenditure. This will save you money if you use an accountant or time if you do it yourself. You just need to look at the seperate statements.

voodoo said:
If both loans are IO then how do we pay off the PPOR (loan 2)? and because I am virtually level pegging each month with my income and expenditure wouldnt my off set account be empty?
I currently have a LOC limit for 128k and at the moment I have used 110k so would I pull out the remaining 18k and put in an off set account or how does this work? who would be the best to talk to about this.

The money that will normally go into Loan 2 (your PPOR) will sit in the Offset Account instead. If you decide to pay off your home, you do so when the balance in the Offset Account matches the loan amount. You can then either close this loan completely or leave it sitting there for redraw when other investments come up and it will be fully deductible or keep it available for personal expenditure where it won't be deductible. It is always good to have funds available.

The second every dollar you earn hits your Offset Account, it will start reducing your interest expense. You will benefit from an interest rate reduction and the balance should be increasing due to no principal being paid into the loan. Remember, EVERY CENT must be deposited into the Offset Account including rental income. You pay the interest on your interest only investment loan via direct debit from the Offset Account as well so it helps you reduce your interest expense while the funds sit idol.

Ideally, whatever your new loan limits would be under this new structure, you would withdraw all the funds and park them in the Offset Account as you suggested. You may also like to increase your borrowings to around 60% LVR just to ensure you have enough money to get through the tougher times you are facing and some additional funds in case a good positive investment opportunity arises to improve your cashflow situation further.

This paragraph is Financial Planner stuff but you might even look at a nice Property Trust (deferred taxation) that pays regular dividends at levels higher than the cost of the interest. It would both increase your tax deductions and your cash flow. It is also considered relatively low risk.

It may sound complicated and daunting if you are not familiar with the structure I am describing but I can assure you that it is simple to set up and very low maintenance once it is setup. It is also cheaper than running with LOCs.

I am happy to assist you with this through the forum, my websitel or by email (details below) if you prefer privacy but I do not submit loans for anyone anymore. All I do is discuss and advise as to the various structures, products and rates available to those needing the information. If you need a good broker, I do refer to other brokers who do not charge any fees and work with them to try and sort the best deal for those who ask for my help. I do get part of the brokers commission if I provide a referral but it still costs you nothing. The lender pays the broker's commission.

There are also many brokers here as Rolf pointed out (himself included) who are more than qualified to help you get the best deal. If you want some help, just ask and there will be no shortage of those willing to help you!!! :)
 
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