Continuing to grow - Ideas

Gee buddy i thought i was aggressive ? as a young player you have not seen as yet what happens when the cards fall down the LVR leaves you wide open and having your mums place involved in this would be very dirty indeed , your income might be the only one thats holding up these cards at the moment but things happen and you don't look like your safegards are in place to save you , these things usually come so sideways nobody see's them untill they are on your door step. some of the other posters can tell you their little bits about that.
1 rule would be to allow other peoples money to get into your cash flow, if you keep the LVR down abit then the properties become more managable, at the moment you are soly relying on capital growth and if this doesnt happen for the next 5 years can you keep the funds coming??? in that time expect 1<2 % of IR rises would this crush you? untill the capital growth gets there for you to capitalize on. reduce your high gearing down a notch or two.
 
Thanks for the feedback Craigb.

Yeah you are correct in saying that i haven't seen the bad times, well i have seen them but haven't experienced.

I think sometimes to grow, you gotta be cautious and preserve the castle.

Just plugged into my spread sheets 8% I/R on properties (currently paying 6.66) and 10% on margin loan. My after tax CF- increases from 14k to 23.8k

So from a cash flow point of view im still fine. It's the LVR to worry about.


The general concensous so far seems to be for me to increase buffers, reduce LVR and intro more risk mitigation strats. So peoples i hear you loud and clear
 
- I would like to replace my PAYG annual income but slightly above it. I earn 80k P.A at the moment, i would like to have that @ 100k so it gives me the choice to retire or work part time.

- I might be older, im 23... People in the future/past will do it quicker, bigger, better then myself so gotta learn to control those feelings of envy and just focus on improving my own game


First of all congratulations on achieving what you have at such young age!!

Based on the above two comments and what you have achieved so far I would say you are not aiming high enough. I reckon you should aim for a lot higher and push your retirement plans bit further.

With the number of property and share market cycles you will experience in your life time I would suggest you focus on building a huge asset base. Worry about cashflow once you have built the asset base.

To give you something to think about. To generate 100K cashflow on an $1m asset base you need to generate 10% return all the time. Not impossible but certainly difficult.

To generate 100K cashflow on an $10m asset base you need to generate 1% return from your assets. Much easier to do even in difficult times.

You get the idea...

My advice, invest more in property (get the 80-85% leverage) focus on building huge asset base from which you can launch yourself into full time investing in 10-12 years time. It is boring in the initial years but I am sure it will pay off in later years.

In your early years of investing rather than how much extra cashflow I am generating it's better to set goals at how big is my asset base. I can say with confidence everybody who enjoys their retirement from investing have an asset base of atleast $2m or more. And the way that got their majority was due to the CG rather then the extra $100-$200 a week cashflow they made. Remember, more cash you earn more tax you pay which means that much less money which can compound over time. Therefore, if your goal is to retire, concentrate on getting as bigger asset base as you can.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
-I'll tell you the stamp duty one sec, just opening documents on PC that have it listed.

$7,244 paid in Jan 09.

- I geared 95% Cap LMI. (12.5k deposit)

- Legals/B&P was $1818.50.

- 4k repairs (new fencing/full interior repaint)

I can't remember how much of the deal was funded by equity or cash.

For me the important figure has been total return which for the last yr was around 13-15% combine that with the 95% gearing/leverage has made good profit.


"Didn't look at your other properties/investments... not sure why you're negative gearing $14k pa"

Look at it this way, i paid 14k last yr.

If i was to put that 14k into a high interest account and get 7% *which we all know wasn't available it was more like 5-6%* I would have made $980, paid tax on that @ my tax bracket 30% 686 net profit after tax. To further invest. So a 4.9% return

My portfolio increased by 10% avg in value over the same period and because of leverage my $14,000 returned me $100,000 and i can burrow 90% of that to invest further/increase asset base.

So with the savings account i've increased my funds avaliable to invest by 4.9% with gearing and investing in my neg geared resi portfolio i increased my funds to invest by 642%

BTW my loan on that property isn't 225, its like 252.

Edit: With your shares stuff just add what the people on the hotcopper forum do "DYOR" do your own research


Regards,

RH

Analysis
Oh ok, so basically you stumped up around $25.5k yourself and borrowed $252k. Net cash inflow pre-interest = $15k. Interest = $17.5k.

Net cash outflow of -$2.5k.

To earn 5% ROE (ie 1.275k / 25.5k = 5%) you'd need a return of $1,275 pa. Since you're down $2,500 you'd need $3,775 capital gains, which is the same as your property growing around 1.5% pa. Pretty achievable. So over the long run - at 1% cap growth - it's pretty easy to match term deposit rates. The rest is all upside. Not bad. That's how I'd look at it anyway.

Historical Returns
As for historical returns, congratulations. Truth be told though they're not that important to me. What you actually make is just a factor of strong growth in the past. Better to just stress test your holdings against 1% cap growth going forward and seeing if you beat term deposit rates.

Shares
As for shares, quite like SSM. Made a bit of money on that since ALP came to power as in my humble opinion they'll be a major beneficiary in the NBN rollout, as one of the few companies able to effectively lay out the fibre optic network (they already maintain a sizeable amount of Telstra's existing copper network with Siemans and Leightons).

Been doing some 10% runs these past 2 weeks which has prompted the ASX to issue a 'please explain' set of questions to them about why their share price has gone up so much. In the long run if NBN comes off, I think it'll be a good pay.

Have a look at some stocks like MIN. Had some really strong runs with some upside from increased port allocation at Point Utah.

Of course, do your own research because if I knew I'd be retired and wouldn't be talking to you lot!!!!

Oracle

Must say I disagree with some of the points raised.

a) The value of your investments lie in its ability to generate cashflow to fund retirement. Excessive leverage does not provide that and that's too much interest rate risk to bear for someone on marginal salary - I'm assuming you're on a rather low/average salary as you're still in the 30% tax bracket. At $60k not sure how much you take home, but I think it's around $45k? A bit of an interest rate shock as you said and you're $20k out of pocket every year, leaving you with only $25k pa. If interest rates do put you in that position, other people will be in that position too, meaning cap growth will be just that - capped. So no equity to draw out.

b) 95% LVR is high, there's no questions about that. A more reasonable gearing would be 80%, even at this age. I would only take such high gearing if it was set up in such a way that you are protected by limited liability and defined set of collateral, because you don't want to be in a House of Cards situation.

c) As for your own point about 0% LVR, I think that just means you'll have a lazy balance sheet. All successful businesses have net debt. As said, I think 80% is a very reasonable gearing at your age/my age.
 
I was writing down what i wanted to achieve from investing.

The obvious goal is to have the freedom of choice to stay in the workforce or not and if i did to what degree (Fulltime or Part time).

The excess cashflow would allow me to live nicely.


Now were do i need to be financially to achieve that.


Basically i'd want an after tax income of $65,000 p.a in todays money


Hi Ridin-High,


Thanks. It's so much easier to help you when you write down what you are after.


Check this out, it's just around the corner from you ;


http://www.realcommercial.com.au/cg...er=&cc=&c=38233391&s=nsw&snf=as&tm=1284599513


Less than 1m, cheaper than your 3 houses put together, and produces 96K pa nett after all expenses. Nice brand new building, with a new 3 yr lease.


If you had of selected that, instead of your 3 houses, you'd be well on your way to achieving your freedom.
 
Analysis


Oracle

Must say I disagree with some of the points raised.

a) The value of your investments lie in its ability to generate cashflow to fund retirement. Excessive leverage does not provide that and that's too much interest rate risk to bear for someone on marginal salary - I'm assuming you're on a rather low/average salary as you're still in the 30% tax bracket. At $60k not sure how much you take home, but I think it's around $45k? A bit of an interest rate shock as you said and you're $20k out of pocket every year, leaving you with only $25k pa. If interest rates do put you in that position, other people will be in that position too, meaning cap growth will be just that - capped. So no equity to draw out.

My point was the $120K he has invested in shares buying assets worth $335K. He could have invested in resi. property worth upto $1million.

Even at a fairly modest return of 5% CG he would have made $50K on the $1million investment.

To earn $50K on the $335K he would need to make 14.92% return. Difficult but not impossible.

The amount of effort he puts in to selecting and monitor his share portfolio if he spends the same amount of time selecting his Resi. investments and try and enter market which are increasing in value he would definitely make more than 5% return.

I understand high LVR can be dangerous but at young age you can afford to take slightly more risks provided you manage your cashflows and invest for the long term.

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
My point was the $120K he has invested in shares buying assets worth $335K. He could have invested in resi. property worth upto $1million.

Even at a fairly modest return of 5% CG he would have made $50K on the $1million investment.

To earn $50K on the $335K he would need to make 14.92% return. Difficult but not impossible.

The amount of effort he puts in to selecting and monitor his share portfolio if he spends the same amount of time selecting his Resi. investments and try and enter market which are increasing in value he would definitely make more than 5% return.

I understand high LVR can be dangerous but at young age you can afford to take slightly more risks provided you manage your cashflows and invest for the long term.

Cheers,
Oracle.

Oracle,

Do you agree that cross collat with a parents security is the way to go?
 
Too much risk they'll move on as a tenant to their next development, so as to flog that off at 10% net also.....

WW,

There is probably a 100% chance that they will move on after the 3 years....but that doesn't mean the world falls down if FKP bugger off out of town. It simply get you a decent enough yield for small dollars, over 10% nett yield in a capital city for under 1m bucks.

You place yourslef in a comfy position for 2.5 years, and then spend 6 months looking for another Tenant whilst they are still there.

Who knows what could come of it in that time frame, the next door neighbour might move in, a new start up might move in, you might flog it, you might buy next door.....who knows.

Newbies get so worked up by the big bad bogeyman of vacancy. I used to as well. I've found it's one of the best things when one of the Tenants leave, it gives you the chance to really chuck in a nice market review and go again.

Embrace the freedom, don't be gun shy !!

Let greed overcome fear. Don't let fear overcome greed. :)
 
Oracle,

Do you agree that cross collat with a parents security is the way to go?

I don't know Ridin-Hign's personal circumstances so cannot comment. But generally the answer is NO.

(PS: Riding-High did mention his parents own a few IPs outright and live of rents.)

Cheers,
Oracle.
 
Embrace the freedom, don't be gun shy !!

Let greed overcome fear. Don't let fear overcome greed. :)

Hi Dazz

Interesting question that I'm right at the nub of at the moment. That property is renting for $500psmpa right now in Baulkham Hills. Even though it's nice and shiny and new surely it's not worth the same as mid grade Sydney CBD space? Looks like a pump and dump... ? Of course it may still yield much better than any RIPs around it, if you have the $300k in equity or cash that is the price of entry.

Our bank opportunity is renting around $500psmpa yet market price for the same space around it might be $350psmpa. The list of landlord's works at the commencement of the lease provides the explanation of the difference. While there is 8 years left to go before we have to worry about a vacancy, there is still downside risk then as well as little to no chance that the market review in three years will yield any upside. But then the starting yield is lower but with a much better tenant.

So many factors to consider I'm getting a headache. A little voice is saying to me it's "safe but you can probably do better if you try harder - don't rush!".

I should probably listen to the little voice than just jump at something because it's there and is "safe", if I want the chance to do better than average...
 
I should probably listen to the little voice than just jump at something because it's there and is "safe", if I want the chance to do better than average...

Have you approached the tenant to finance the deal HE? :)

If they won't finance above 70% with a fat commercial rate discount, they must think your deal carries higher than market average risk. :eek:
 
Even though it's nice and shiny and new surely it's not worth the same as mid grade Sydney CBD space? Looks like a pump and dump... ?

You could be right. After having performed 2 minutes DD on it, I couldn't say for sure. The intent of the link was to find something close to R-H that equated in value to his 3 houses to see what the nett rent possibility was.

The 96K nett is a tad better than his current 60K gross. Whether it's a pump and dump is not for me to say.



So many factors to consider I'm getting a headache.

That's the thrill of being an investor. So many things to consider. If it was easy, it wouldn't be good. The hard makes it good.

Listening to everyone on this subject is like watching a bunch of fledglings leave the nest for the first time. I understand you are hesitant. I understand it's massively important......but the chances in your first attempt at flying of you all either ;

  • Crashing head first into a rock
  • Being swooped upon by a big eagle
  • A big gust of wind blowing you off course

is pretty remote.

Take your time by all means, but don't expect to soar amongst the albatross on your first flight. Your wings need to dry. You need to be able to read the upthrusting currents and scan the horizon for danger. You can't do any of those still sitting there in the safe comfy nest.

Take that exhilirating first leap and flap those wings boys. Stop talking and get started.
 
Thanks for the continuing feedback everyone.

Dazz - Trust me if i had the $$$ i would be purchasing comm property. I have 120k in funds avaliable and that doesn't really go far, Anything say under 750k in my experience hasn't really been worth looking at.

Oracle - Yes i've been thinking about leveraging into more RIP, because even if it has a lower total return because of leverage my profit if higher. But yeah do need to give consideration to interest rate rises alot more now because of my more highly leveraged position.

Just work on smashing the cash away for now and stew over my next move
 
Hi all,

I am new to somersoft and thank-you for taking the time to read my post. I am looking at under $400k in the Brisbane area. I have been suggested to look at Springfield near Ipswich at a property; 3bed, 2 bath, 1 car brand new for $388k. Apporx rent of $330 per week. What areas would be suggested for new purchases in the Brisbane region under $400k? I have also been looking at Augustine Heights because the blocks a re slightly larger there for similar price. Does any one have any suggestions on Freshwaster at Griffin or Richlands? I have a long term goal of buy and hold and hope to use the depreciation to offset my tax.

Also, I have been reccommended to use Cantebury property as they have a rental gaurantee and they will buy the property back for market value or purchase price if you run into financial trouble. What would suggestions be on Cantebury, has anyone had an experience?

What type of shares or investments would be suggested to generate good income to help service the loans on further investment properties?

I am currently banking with Westpac with a standard variable rate pf 6.61%.

Please let me know what you think

Kindest regards

Jules
 
Hi all,

I am new to somersoft and thank-you for taking the time to read my post. I am looking at under $400k in the Brisbane area. I have been suggested to look at Springfield near Ipswich at a property; 3bed, 2 bath, 1 car brand new for $388k. Apporx rent of $330 per week. What areas would be suggested for new purchases in the Brisbane region under $400k? I have also been looking at Augustine Heights because the blocks a re slightly larger there for similar price. Does any one have any suggestions on Freshwaster at Griffin or Richlands? I have a long term goal of buy and hold and hope to use the depreciation to offset my tax.

Also, I have been reccommended to use Cantebury property as they have a rental gaurantee and they will buy the property back for market value or purchase price if you run into financial trouble. What would suggestions be on Cantebury, has anyone had an experience?

What type of shares or investments would be suggested to generate good income to help service the loans on further investment properties?

I am currently banking with Westpac with a standard variable rate pf 6.61%.

Please let me know what you think

Kindest regards

Jules

Hi Jules,
Its probably best to post a new thread, because you have a lot of questions which are different to the original thread, and you may get more responses.
It sounds like a property marketing group has been talking to you. Springfield Lakes is OK, but you can probably get better rental yields and maybe also capital growth in other areas. If people offer rental guarantees, it often means that they have inflated the price of the property to make it look like the rent is better than it really is.
Make sure you look on realestate.com.au to get a better idea of the market rates for both renting and selling in the areas you are considering.
cheers
Pen
 
Back
Top