Cost to pump stormwater to road????

[Annietom]

yes, it appears my block, sloping down to the back, requires a pump to send the stormwater at the lowest part of the block (way at the back of course!!) back up the hill to the road.

My road, however, the curb/channel, is still dirt (country area). From what my engineer has said to me, the council want me to pay to install concrete channels down to the next concrete channel that already exists in the next street. I'd say we are talking about 30 mtrs of curb/channel.

You can imagine me fear of the cost, has anyone had a similar situation (ie. dirt curb/channel) and how did you do it (eg. did you have to concrete the whole street)?

 

[Graingrower]

There should be some sort of natural way for the stormwater to find it's way into a drain or creek. If someone has blocked the natural flow of water without providing some sort of alternative than they are in the wrong. You should not have to pump your stormwater uphill to get rid of it. If it has to flow through the neighbours to get to a drain then so be it.

 

[Annietom]

There should be some sort of natural way for the stormwater to find it's way into a drain or creek. If someone has blocked the natural flow of water without providing some sort of alternative than they are in the wrong. You should not have to pump your stormwater uphill to get rid of it. If it has to flow through the neighbours to get to a drain then so be it.

g'day graingrower, thanks for those words! I wish you were right. I believe that to run a drain under my neighbours block is at his discretion. And as it requires an easement, it can't have any buildings over it. Unfortunately his garage is over the area for the most part, and essentially, the likelihood of him agreeing to moving his brick garage (not to mention the exorbitant cost, inconvenience and time required) is almost non-negotiable. At the very least, from posts I've seen on this subject on somersoft forum, he will probably want substantial compensation for such a thing. (eg. $30K)

So as much as your suggestion is good, without his consent, it's no use to me, and even with his consent, I'd have to pay to move his garage, pay for a 2mtr easement and then all the subsequent costs with that arrangement including soly's fees.

The one thing I like about a pump (and there is only ONE thing i like about it) is that I don't have to deal with neighbours. I regain control of the project, I can buy the pump (after looking around for the best value for money), I can book the digger, book the plumber, and get it done.

I can handle the plumbing side, its' the road curb/channel (road construction???) work that frightens me as I have no experience in this kind of thing, or it's cost. The water guy was saying to me today something like $1,000 per metre!!! wot the!

It would be lovely to hear from someone who has had a similar problem, maybe no one else is as silly as me!!!

 

[Graingrower]

I can't believe why anyone would allow him to build a garage that blocks the flow of water off your property. When did this happen, how old is his garage and how long have you owned the property.

Where does the stormwater off your roof go? Can you pump your water in the same place?
Can you knock a brick out of his garage? Why can't the water flow around his garage? I think that you have a right for stormwater to exit your property at the lowest point.

 

[Annietom]

I can't believe why anyone would allow him to build a garage that blocks the flow of water off your property. When did this happen, how old is his garage and how long have you owned the property.

Where does the stormwater off your roof go? Can you pump your water in the same place?
Can you knock a brick out of his garage? Why can't the water flow around his garage? I think that you have a right for stormwater to exit your property at the lowest point.

no, am I subdividing my block, it is the new vacant subdivided lot that needs stormwater sorted b4 permit will be issued. The old existing home (built 1870) also has no stormwater either (never sorted in the past), currently that just flows off to the dirt road on the side, and frankly, it does that poorly.

I see your point about allowing for the old home (and I never thought of that, but its a valid point for an existing home), but the new subdivision lot was not forseeable.

 

[brendio]

I can't believe why anyone would allow him to build a garage that blocks the flow of water off your property. When did this happen, how old is his garage and how long have you owned the property.

Where does the stormwater off your roof go? Can you pump your water in the same place?
Can you knock a brick out of his garage? Why can't the water flow around his garage? I think that you have a right for stormwater to exit your property at the lowest point.

Way back when, it was fine for stormwater to follow its natural flow to the nearest creek or river, even if that is over the neighbour's property. But once you start developing, you have to do things to current regulations, which require all your stormwater runoff to be directed to the council drainage system, be that the curb and channel at the front of your property, or interallotment drainage through neighbouring lots (which then require easements with them).

A lot of the time, these regs are overkill, but the increased development means more impervious surfaces (roofs, driveways etc.), so more stormwater runoff rather than being absorbed into the ground.

To your original question, $1000 per metre sounds a bit steep for curb and channel. I was talking to a builder who regularly does unit developments and I think the price was $35 per metre for curb and channel. Presumably preparation of the subsurface would account for some of this difference, but it still seems like a lot. Do you also have to widen the road to the curb?

In any case, I wouldn't rule out negotiations with the neighbour before you even start. You never know what they might agree to until you ask. Certainly having a backup plan to go it alone is good in knowing how far you want to go with the neighbour to get an easement. But I still think you should try the neighbour. I've found my neighbours to be not as scary to approach as I first imagined when we started out our development.

 

[Annietom]

hi brendan, yeah, point one: I think it was a bit steep, it was the water co guy, and I don't think he'd know end user price. Perhaps he is thinking of doing the "whole road" kinda thing. There would be no foot path and the road is quite a distance from the drain "ditch" so I don't think it is a 'curb' in fact, more like the drain. Either way, you know what engineers and council people are like Brendan, so vague and always second guessing each other (like "too many indians" ideology! Very frustrating.

Point two: neighbour.
I will remain optomisitic, but I think it's impossible. His garage is clearly 1 foot from fence, and the engineer said 2 mts must be clear from the fence, in which they would lay the drain in the middle (ie. 1 mtr in) and his garage is right over this placement. (I'm sure it's a concrete floor). Eeek, I shreek to think about it. The pump just sounds so much easier, albeit perhaps pricier.

Remember the council are saying I have to put the drains right down the street of my neighbour too!!

TBH, i don't know the outcome yet, I can't get a council worker to work on the same day as the next guy, so I keep getting different opinions!

 

[cdd]

There are three options for your drainage:-

1. Fill the lots so that they drain to the front. This probably isn't an option in your case because of the existing house.

2. Drain via your neighbours property. As you've found out, you'll need to create an easement on their title and will also have to construct underground drainage from your lots, through their property and to the discharge point (usually the nearest Council-owned drainage pit or pipe). The garage creates issues; one possible solution I can see is to bore the pipe beneath the garage. It costs more than trenching but is cheaper than demolition works. However, Council would need to be happy with this arrangement.

3. Pump to the front. Pumping is always a last resort; it's expensive to install, expensive to run (electricity and maintenance) and can be a deterrent to potential purchasers of your property. You may need two pump stations if Council deem that the drainage arrangement for the existing house is inadequate. Additionally, Council may not let you pump directly to the back of kerb. This means you may have to extend the rising main(s) to the nearest underground drainage.

Now, the road dilemma. I'm assuming that the road itself is sealed? The kerb & channel itself is likely to cost you between $65 and $100 per metre. However, there are additional works to be undertaken, including shaping of the nature strip and widening of the road to the lip of kerb. Even if the existing edge of bitumen is in line with where the lip of kerb is going to go, about 1m of the road will need to be removed to get the kerb machine past, which will then need to be reconstructed once the concrete in the kerb has cured. It may cost you $50 per square metre for road widening.

For example, say we need a 2 metre road widening and kerb & channel. That will cost $50 x 2 (for the road) + $80 (for the kerb) + $20 (allowance for nature strip reshaping etc) = $200 per lineal metre. Therefore your 30 metres would cost around $6,000 + GST.

(The figure of $1,000 per metre that was mentioned to you would pay for a complete new road, including formation & earthworks, pavement, seal, kerb & channel on both sides and footpath on both sides. Even then, you'd expect some change.)

Remember that both the drainage and roadworks will need to be designed by an engineer and approved by Council before you can start works. Good luck!

 

[Annietom]

1. Fill the lots so that they drain to the front. This probably isn't an option in your case because of the existing house.

I have asked if I can fill the lot, but council have so far said no. BUT that was yesterday, who knows what they will say tomorrow. Initially, they said yes to this!! (i'll suggest that to my engineer again)

2. Drain via your neighbours property.

Yes, I need an easement. And your idea of "boring" is fantastic, but it doesn't deal with the easement issue. I know I can bore it, but it's still under a garage, and they won't allow it over the drain.

3. Pump to the front.

Yes the dreaded pump. And I agree with all the negatives you have raised. I think it is the only option, and that's life! Obviously I'd rather go under neighbours block.

Additionally, Council may not let you pump directly to the back of kerb. This means you may have to extend the rising main(s) to the nearest underground drainage.

Yes, I think that was what the engineer was saying to me today, and that was what raised my question to the forum. This photo shows the existing house from the street, and the new lot is to the right of the house (street frontage - it's a wide lot). See all the dirt, the road is way back, with no existing curb. The drain is about 2mts back from the house boundary, and the road is a further approx 10mtrs away.

So yes it's sealed bitumen, but I think they are asking me to go to the pit (or create one) and then have it connect to the pit in the next street that alrady exists... and this is the cost factor I'm trying to work out. My engineer, etc etc, won't commit to a price for me at this stage, and I have to go the bank next week, and really, I want to get enough to cover this. It would be handy if someone had done something similar and finding out what they ended up paying and for what.

Remember that both the drainage and roadworks will need to be designed by an engineer and approved by Council before you can start works. Good luck!


Yeah, I know, and I'm now wondering what the engineer is going to charge me, I may put another thread asking that in a minute!

thanks too!

 

[Rockstar]

Hi Annie,

In my shire you are allowed to charge your downpipes up to 1 metre below the gutter line. ie: if the street gutter is equal to or more than 1 metre below the house guttering you can drain to the street. Water permanently sits in your pipes up to that level when it's not raining. Surely you would have enough fall to the street to get the stormwater out - looking at the block. Check this with the council planners - not your engineer. The kerb and gutter is a cost you will have to bear. Get some quotes to give a realistic cost.

 

[brendio]

Rockstar, I think Annie is talking about storm water that falls in the yard, not on the roof. Once you subdivide, water cannot flow from your yard into a neighbour's yard.

 

[Rockstar]

Rockstar, I think Annie is talking about storm water that falls in the yard, not on the roof. Once you subdivide, water cannot flow from your yard into a neighbour's yard.

Hmm, I thought Annie was doing a dual occ - from a previous thread. Didn't read this thread properly.
Maybe, Annie, you can ask if you can do a dual occ and then strata subdivide? When you do a dual occ with strata subdivision, you are required by council to maintain the existing natural flow levels of rainwater. This is done through OSD (onsite stormwater detention) system which holds back stormwater in a holding tank and releases it gradually back into the drainage system. This is where we are allowed in our shire to charge the pipes. The only problem is you need to build the second house before you can do the strata subdivision.

 

[Annietom]

hi guys, yeah it is a dual occ, although they both have street frontage because it has a wide frontage. I can't really afford to build the 2nd home b4 dividing, I'm counting on the sale from the first home to fund the build of the 2nd.

Nice idea to consider in future tho...

 

[devank]

Here is some indication. I was faced with the similar problem and bit the bullet! Keep it mind, this is the cheapest quote out of at least 5 others!

Items -$ Cost
12M X 100 Stormwater -$230
26M X 150 Stormwater -$905
6M X 150 X 100 RHS + 2 Bends -$840
Install two pumps -$860
Pressure pipes -$630
2 x 450 x 450 Pits -$1050
1 x 450 x 450 Pit + Concrete lid -$580
4 x 900 x 600 Pits -$3360
Absorption trench 10.5m by 1.8m -$2625
Jet 16 X 100mm holes in pits drilled -$420
Dig out + Build detention tank -$14700
Remove 5 by 10 tonnes of soil from site -$3800
Sub Total -$30,000.00
GST -$3,000.00
Grand Total -$33,000.00
NOTE.
2. Excluded electrical works to connect pumps to power.
3. Excluded supply of trench grates + frames in driveway.

 

[Annietom]

well devank, I'm keen to hear from my engineer (hopefully today) with more insight as to what has to be done. THanx so much for your breakdown because now I have a place to work from. Obviously the large cost to you was the dig/trench thing - I'm praying I don't have to do that one!!

thanx again, I may PM you with more questions if that's ok at a later date...

cheers,
Annie

 

[devank]

No problems. PM me if you need more info.
You are right. The detention tank (10 cubic meter in our case) is the main cost. Some people even quoted over 30K to do the detention tank alone!

I know this is not the 'normal' way to do it but why not use one of those pre-made concrete pipes (I don't know the exact name) instead of building the tank?

 

[Rockstar]

I can't really afford to build the 2nd home b4 dividing,

Nice idea to consider in future tho...

Would you be permitted to build the 2nd home before dividing? And how much lower is the land for house 2 than the road level?

 

[Annietom]

no RS, need to divide & sell old home first. The new lot has good street frontage, but the pump is right down the back of the block!