Fiscal trogolytes and property values

The current precarious financial consequences are about to wash over us. The first link is related to our largest trading partner Japan, read and weep;

http://www.theage.com.au/national/japan-plunges-into-depression-20090216-899i.html?page=-1

To recap my predictions, this has been made difficult as I have just discovered as when I try to go back over my old posts it only goes back 10 pages to mid September some of the pertinent posts go back before x-mas last year when I was posting in Mauritius


1. ASX 300 to fall to 3500 (mid September 2008 call)
2. Reserve interest rates to drop to 2% (mid July 2008 call)
3. Financial tsunami call (Feb 2008 in an SMSF thread)
4. Put 5% of your assets into gold (March 2008 call)
5. Dollar to drop to 38 cents 2009/10 (July 2008 call)
6. Unemployment not to go above 6.5% (September 2008 call)
7. Rents will not appreciably fall when property prices collapse (called September 2008 call)
8. Residential to drop 40-50%, Commercial up to 70% ( called March-April 2008?)
9. Deflation in Australia will largely be confined to property and share values initially ( call Oct 2008)
10. ASX 300 to fall below 2200 (call early November 2008)


The Why of the coming collapse of property values specifically in Australia is complex with external and internal triggers. Internally it is related to a tax system in Australia that allows high worth individuals to totally negative gear away their exertional income and qualify for a low income family supplement.

In recent years it has not only been the Chardonnay chattering class that has indulged in the best tax minimization scheme the world has ever seen. Thanks to debt securitization rolled out first popularized by Aussie home loans anyone over the age of 18 could gear up to the eye balls. Councils, State and Federal governments aided and abetted this huge Ponzi scheme, reaping a bonanza in soaring rates, land tax and Capital gains taxes.

The continued rise in asset values is predicated on the continued willingness of fresh investors paying ever increasing prices and government acquiescence in limiting the supply of land in the capital cities. Because we are a young country with an ever increasing immigrant influx there are only pockets of oversupply (aka the gold coast white shoe brigade).

Over the years the Ponzi scheme has drafted in property valuers to the point where drive by valuations became the norm for our four pillars (nab, ANZ, Westpac, CBA).

At the moment we are witnessing a huge bear trap that is going to engulf undercapitalized first home owners with properties that will collapse in value when the soft depression really starts to bite.

For those who have purchased property before 2002 the collapse will be managable provided you have paid down some principle. If you have spare cash this is where you want it working so that in the years 2012 to 2015 you are holding an asset that has debt in Australian dollars that are worthless. This is when those properties that are realistically valued at pre 2002 prices will protect you from the sting of the fiat Aussie peso.

For the property luddites who think nothing is going to change here is an explanation of why the world banking system is insolvent;

http://www.villagevoice.com/2009-01-28/news/what-cooked-the-world-s-economy/
 
Fiscal trogolytes and property values

Did you mean 'Troglodytes?'

4. Put 5% of your assets into gold (March 2008 call)

Why not 6%?

At the moment we are witnessing a huge bear trap that is going to engulf undercapitalized first home owners with properties that will collapse in value when the soft depression really starts to bite.

Wouldn't that be a bull trap then, rather than a bear trap?

For those who have purchased property before 2002 the collapse will be managable

Is that regardless of which city the property was purchased in? 2002 was pretty close to the peak of the market in Sydney. Real prices in Sydney are still around 2002 levels. So you're saying Sydney prices won't fall by 50% then?

By the way, I disagree with most of your post.

Cheers,

Shadow.
 
whats a trogolyte?
Like Shadow, I assume he meant "troglodyte":

trog⋅lo⋅dyte   [trog-luh-dahyt] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a prehistoric cave dweller.
2. a person of degraded, primitive, or brutal character.
3. a person living in seclusion.
4. a person unacquainted with affairs of the world.
5. an animal living underground.

Thanks, Ian, for such a thoughtful response.
 
Like Shadow, I assume he meant "troglodyte":

trog⋅lo⋅dyte   [trog-luh-dahyt] Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a prehistoric cave dweller.
2. a person of degraded, primitive, or brutal character.
3. a person living in seclusion.
4. a person unacquainted with affairs of the world.
5. an animal living underground.

Thanks, Ian, for such a thoughtful response.

Sounds like a Bear:D

Hi Ian and thanks as well

Dave
 
to think that resi property will devalue by 50% - but not give a date by when - is just speculation - the same type that caused the bubble in the first place.

yes, the stock market came down to 3500. cool. i was wrong. did i worry? my bear put spread from the 4800 break worked well, and again from 4500, and again from 4000.

one can be bearish and still see money making opportunities in all areas. why, i know for a fact that an apartment on the gold coast that sold for 1.89m in 1997 sold just two weeks ago for $700k at a foreclosure sale. is that not an exercise in both lunacy and opportunity?

my bull call spread on gold is looking awesome right now - have just taken the first of my scale out profits.

all this money gets pumped back into my debt serviceability, reducing LVRs, credit cards, car loans etc - things i got a little carried away with and lazy with during the "good old days". an effective tax haven of trusts and pty ltd's means i pay as little tax as possible to reap this reward.

i am still interested to know how you plan to insure yourself from a 70% fall in Commercial RE values - if commercial tenants are your "backup plan" like i predict. after all, if someone like linfox decides they don't need your lease, they'll pay it out and bugger off. can you rent it again? no? can you loan against it? i wouldn't - not with the bank wanting to foreclose on anything and everything with lower LVRs brought to their attention. so what do you do?

what DO you do? what are YOUR strategies? i'm genuinely interested, but youy refuse to let it be known.

sitting at home in a paid off house preaching D&G does nothing for one's reputation - regardless of the kudos you receive from those "over there".
 
Hmmmm...you look Chicken Little look very positive....

As for residential property dropping 40%...no sign of it yet.....as a matter of fact the bidding on low end property is reaching a frenzied pace. I have friend who works in the largest RE at Merrylands. They auctioned two properties (houses) and they both went for $30-40k above reserve...and these were bank auctions.

As for commercial properties dropping 70%...big ask there also. Possible for some locations exposed to mining trade...but larger cities will cope okay. But agree will see a dramatic reduction as CP has not had the same IR drop. Particularly, if tenants don't renew the lease and the owner is holding large debts.

Deflation...well petrol prices went to under $1 and have come back to $1.15-1.20. Houses under $300 around the country is selling for $10-50k more than last year. Hmmmm....would be more worried about inflation with all the stimulation going on!

Time will tell......

Also, remember Australia is different to the USA, Japan, and the UK....but I do agree that unemployment is heading up...but most say it will stabilise at 7%. If the sharemarket goes up in the next few months....wait for the queue of baby boomers ....rearing to retire....where will the labour come from! Sounds like inflation again....

1. ASX 300 to fall to 3500 (mid September 2008 call)
2. Reserve interest rates to drop to 2% (mid July 2008 call)
3. Financial tsunami call (Feb 2008 in an SMSF thread)
4. Put 5% of your assets into gold (March 2008 call)
5. Dollar to drop to 38 cents 2009/10 (July 2008 call)
6. Unemployment not to go above 6.5% (September 2008 call)
7. Rents will not appreciably fall when property prices collapse (called September 2008 call)
8. Residential to drop 40-50%, Commercial up to 70% ( called March-April 2008?)
9. Deflation in Australia will largely be confined to property and share values initially ( call Oct 2008)
10. ASX 300 to fall below 2200 (call early November 2008)


The Why of the coming collapse of property values specifically in Australia is complex with external and internal triggers. Internally it is related to a tax system in Australia that allows high worth individuals to totally negative gear away their exertional income and qualify for a low income family supplement.

For the property luddites who think nothing is going to change here is an explanation of why the world banking system is insolvent;

http://www.villagevoice.com/2009-01-28/news/what-cooked-the-world-s-economy/
 
Internally it is related to a tax system in Australia that allows high worth individuals to totally negative gear away their exertional income and qualify for a low income family supplement.

Which "low income family supplements" are you referring to? I was under the impression these benefits are based on adjusted taxable income ie negative gearing losses are added.
 
The current precarious financial consequences are about to wash over us. The first link is related to our largest trading partner Japan, read and weep;

[

i like the last paragraph in that link:

Quote: But the bulk of the new loans were for refinancing or for debt consolidation. Lending remains 27 per cent down over the year.

Now for once and all that should keep the Bulls quiet on the forum about the market being bouyant with borrowings for property and the market is sound or going to spike again..

I dont think many Aussies especially anyone under 40 realize what is under way here in Australia..

Jobs are the key! watch the unemployment numbers keep rising...then sit back and watch the housing market prices slide along with sales volumes.
 
i like the last paragraph in that link:

Quote: But the bulk of the new loans were for refinancing or for debt consolidation. Lending remains 27 per cent down over the year.

Now for once and all that should keep the Bulls quiet on the forum about the market being bouyant with borrowings for property and the market is sound or going to spike again..

I dont think many Aussies especially anyone under 40 realize what is under way here in Australia..

Jobs are the key! watch the unemployment numbers keep rising...then sit back and watch the housing market prices slide along with sales volumes.

so short propert trusts? maybe take a 6m put spread....?

maybe Sunfish is right with his gold predictions then - that is, if everything is going to sht and uncertainty reigns - so a long CFD hedge on Lihir or something?

but your dire rpedictions would also mean rates would fall further if most refis are for debt consolidation - the image seen by the statistics wouldn't show what's happening underneath - so housing should be more affordable, and holding costs will improve, yes?

see - i think that's the difference. is the glass half full, or half empty? if the level in the glass is still dropping, does that not mean you should take it for the chance to fil it later?

plenty of ways to stay afloat given your predictions.
 
At the moment we are witnessing a huge bear trap that is going to engulf undercapitalized first home owners with properties that will collapse in value when the soft depression really starts to bite.
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It's like the super bonanza from John, a poison chalice. A bit of a boom and more downdraft. The government has great timing. I wonder if FHB's will be able to get another handout later if their properties do not do so well.

First reduce returns on term deposits to zero, get everyone to spend and if that doesn't work, where are we left... oh dear, thanks kevin. Great handouts, who's paying, oh, it's us ! How ingenious...More Kevin essays please.
 
The problem is Non Recourse presents a set of figures and expects them each to play into each other, when the economy is more intricate than that.
The most annoying thing that i foresee is several of the factors becoming true, in which case Non Recourse will claim that he wasnt right on all of them but he was right on some of them.

The other worry i have is someone who is gullable enough to listen to Non Recourse and risk permant impairment of his investment goals (after which Non Recourse just disapears into the Sunset or comes back with a different log in id, afterall he has only been here since 2007, he can yap on this forum to his hearts content, its no skin off his back, he has already set his investment plans in motion according to his beliefs).

Let me give you one possible (and its only a possible) scenario under which listening to Non Recourse could permanently impair someones investment goals:
Lets assume an investor has several properties bought during times of easy credit lending, but this guy is actually reasonably responsible. He knew he could afford them, some of them where negatively geared when purchased, all of them now are either cash flow neutral or cash flow positive.
Lets say they have a reasonable LVR of 65% after capital appreciation (not Non Recourses emphatic do or die 30%).
Lets say the total cost of the portfolio is $200 per week under current variable interest rates + 2% buffer zone.

Now lets say this guy is being influenced by the media and Non Recourses constant do as i say or else, influences him to dispose of the properties.

Now what happens if banks start to revert to their OLD lending practices (they are already doing this on commercial/business loans etc, there is no guarantee they wont do this for new customers on residential loans):
*They start demanding 20% minimum equity
*They start applying old income assertion tests.

This investor by the time he realises capital gains tax on disposal of the properties, transaction costs on disposal and re-entry into property, could find himself transacted out of re-establishing his portfolio in the future.

I again warn fellow Somersofters and others reading this forum: We dont know the future as much as we try to extrapolate the past into the present. However realise that Non-recourse has publicly stated that he is not disposing of his commerical properties (even though he forecasts they may fall up to 70%) merely because of suitable trust structures that may project the asset from creditors, but does nothing to protect the underlying assets from his publicly stated future estimates. This coupled with a forecast drop in the AU$ to 0.38 equals a total asset loss of 82% or a required future return of 550% to restor capital values. Against this logic Non-Recourse says he cant find a better alternative asset that should produce a future loss less than 82%.
 
Fiscal trogolytes

I'm 8 months into a 3 year course. When I graduate, I'll be a qualified trogolyte, although it'll be a further 2 years of study to be a fully fledged fiscal trogolyte.
 
Bond University does an accelerated version where you can go full time over summer as well. Costs a bit more up front but you can be living in your own cave up to 18 months earlier. When you factor in the deflationary benefits of cave dwelling, this can be a significant advantage over the long run. Their student support center can also teach you how to rub two sticks together to make fire - Im sure you dont need that Dazz but just noting for others that might be interested.
 
The current precarious financial consequences are about to wash over us.
....
5. Dollar to drop to 38 cents 2009/10
....
The Why of the coming collapse of property values specifically in Australia is complex with external and internal triggers.
...
If you have spare cash this is where you want it working so that in the years 2012 to 2015 you are holding an asset that has debt in Australian dollars that are worthless. This is when those properties that are realistically valued at pre 2002 prices will protect you from the sting of the fiat Aussie peso.

For the property luddites who think nothing is going to change here is an explanation of why the world banking system is insolvent;
NR,

You've mentioned elsewhere that you're expecting all fiat currencies to collapse & that all banks throughout the world are insolvent.

Can you elaborate ?
Do you consider a bank to be insolvent, if it could not withstand a run on it ?
Do you consider that the banking regulators who make the solvency rules are wrong/hiding something/incompetent ? US, Oz & elsewhere ?

What to you expect to be the result of the global banking system collapsing ?
Would cash be worthless ?
Would we go back to a barter system ?
Why would the A$ be worth 38c, if the US$ is worthless ?

What events do you see that could prevent this happening, or is it a 100% guaranteed scenario ?
 
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