Getting someone out of your property

[Plodder]

My brother owns a home.
He invited a guy to come and live with him a few months back.
Then he had to go overseas to work and has asked me to look after the property, giving me full power of attorney to act for him.

He didn't get any rent from the "friend" and they didn't have any lease agreement. Now my brother wants the house sold and the guy who has now invited his friends to live there won't go. Nor will he pay any rent.

Unfortunately they are trashing the house and the back yard has not been mowed this year yet, they have parties regularly and have rubbished the house and the yard. Upsetting the neighbours is a regular occurrence.

We sought legal advice to have them removed, and the lawyer suggested that they need to be treated as tenants even though they have no lease and pay no rent, and the police will not remove them without an order from the Residential Tenancy Tribunal.

So we went to the tribunal and they would not give an eviction order because they believe its out of their hands because the occupants are not tenants.

Does anyone have any suggestions about where we go next? We feel like we are in no mans land without knowing where to turn to for help.

Any help would be appreciated. The house is in NSW.

many thanks

 

[wylie]

I wonder if the local police would be able to help?

What about having the power cut off? Do these people go to work. Is there any time that the house is empty? Could you go around with enough people to move their stuff out?

Whatever you do, they will probably trash the place some more in retaliation.

I would definitely bring the police into it. These people are squatting.

 

[Plodder]

Hi Wylie,
Unfortunately the police will not act without an order to evict and as I said we couldn't get that order at the tribunal.

I don't know if they pay their power bills but if they do I am not entitled to have it turned off.

We are trying very hard to go by the letter of the law and not go vigilante group but I have to say we are not getting very far taking that attitude.

That is why i thought there might be someone here that has found a way around all of this.

If there is I would very much appreciate more ideas.

Yes these people work but they are not a very nice bunch and to be honest I don't really feel like I am in a position to take them on.

thanks for your input

 

[chrispy]

This is your brother's problem.

He needs to return, take his house back over and get his "friend" out.

Chris

 

[handyandy]

Maybe your brother needs to come home and fix up his mess.

He is the person who has invited his friend into his house and really he is the only one who can uninvite him. Obviously, you have tried and have been rejected and as such the ex friend has no respect for your brother wishes.

The other option is to fight fire with fire. Get your brother to speak to his friend and verbally indicate that he has to move out as other family members are moving in, then get a whole bunch of family members to 'invade' the property and simply evict the friend. If the friend calls police he has no claim as he no longer lives there. Have a letter ready which indicates your brother wishes to allow the police to make an easy decision. Haven't tried this but this is what I would do.

Cheers

 

[Perp]

If the Tribunal has ruled that they aren't tenants, and you can provide a copy of this decision to the Police, then surely they are now trespassers and the Police have grounds to get involved. The Police will want to ensure that their *** is covered and they're not acting to evict tenants; a ruling that these people aren't tenants, from the Tribunal, should address such a concern and provide grounds for them to help you get rid of your trespassers.

You also now have grounds to change all the locks.

I think if you ring up the electricity company and say that you now want the electricity to be transferred to your own name as the owner and legal occupier of the property, and especially given that you can provide the electricity company with documentation proving that the occupiers are not lawful tenants - then I can't see why you can't have the electricity disconnected. Similarly, you should be able to have the water disconnected at the mains.

Good luck. If people such as police etc keep telling you they can't do something because of "tenants' rights", just keep flashing that Tribunal ruling that they're not tenants, and don't accept that as justification for inaction.

 

[wylie]

I agree with Perp about getting the police involved. The police cannot have it both ways. Either they are tenants or they are not. Clearly they are not, and the tribunal has ruled in that regard. So, are they not now squatters? If the police do knock on the door the squatters can say "but (your brother) allowed us to live here". Get a fax from your brother, direct to the police station, stating he wants them out, that they are not on a lease, have been asked to leave and refuse to leave.

I have never had to contact the tenants union (not sure what they are called) but perhaps it is worth googling them and seeing how others have resolved such an issue.

I do know that the police were happy to meet me at a place to help evict some tenants a few years ago. All the appropriate forms and notices had been given (but your situation is different as they are NOT tenants). My point is that the police were happy to meet me there to ensure they left.

I would be pushing for the police to get involved, and remind them of the complaints of the neighbours as well. If the neighbours have not called police, make sure they start calling, regularly, daily until the police take some notice.

This is a horrible situation to be in.

 

[Perp]

I agree with Perp about getting the police involved. The police cannot have it both ways. Either they are tenants or they are not. Clearly they are not, and the tribunal has ruled in that regard.

Exactly; this should be exactly the ruling you needed to get them out expeditiously - use it as such!

 

[Propertunity]

Whilst I am not recommending this as a course of action, I can't help but reflect on the good (bad) old days where you'd send over 4 of your Chopper Reid type mates with baseball bats and perhaps a hessian sack filled with doorknobs and have the "problem" fixed immediately

 

[cadence]

Sounds like a squatter =S

Maybe you can wait until he's not home, get together all his stuff and leaves them out the front of the house. Change the locks etc.

If the tribunal doesn't see him as a tenant, then he doesnt have all the super awesome rights of a tenant. If he has an issue, he can take it up himself. At least you know how the tribunal will treat him so you don't have to worry there. If he goes to the police, surely the officers should apply some common sense and realise what a pest he is and should not assist him.

The only risk you run is he might turn vengeful and trash your place or rock up during open houses when you try to sell ......

Good luck, sounds horrible!!!

Btw, I hope your bro has revoked the power of attorney??

 

[Piston Broke]

Hi Wylie,
Unfortunately the police will not act without an order to evict and as I said we couldn't get that order at the tribunal.

IME (as others) this this nonsense, the police have always been more than helpful in offering assistance when laws are breached.
And though I made it clear to them that I like to resolve issues diplomatically they've always said "if you can't and need us to come and have a word, let us know"

I don't really feel like I am in a position to take them on.

You've just answered your own question.
Then pass the responsibility back to the owner or grow a pair.

 

[Plodder]

Thanks for all of your comments - of course I do agree with them all. We have just spent two hours at the police station and the only tiny bit of assistance the "Senior Constable" would offer was to go around there and do "something" although he would not say what that was. He said he was familiar with the house but would not elaborate why.

Before this happened I would have agreed that the police 'should' do some thing and 'would' but this has really been an eye opener to me especially regarding this particular cop's attitude. In fact he was the one to insist that we go to the Tribunal for an order so of course he didn't accept the order we brought back!

It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

...And I will not be growing anything extra I am happy with my female bits thanks.

cheers

 

[chilliblue]

Sorry to advise you but they are squatters under the NSw definition and if you want to read some really blood curdling information on how they work, read the squattors manual at the below link:

http://squatspace.com/handbook/index.php

"Squatting in NSW is covered by the Inclosed Lands Protection Act (NSW). Under that law it is illegal to either:

1.enter upon inclosed lands without consent from the owner or representative of the owner.
OR
2.remain upon inclosed lands after being requested to leave by the owner or the agent.

If there is no evidence that you entered without ‘lawful excuse’ or ‘consent’ — a witness’ account, surveillance camera footage, crowbars and broken locks lying around — then you cannot be charged under the ‘entering’ provision. It’s important to not admit to entering without consent. If asked, say the door was open when you, or some imaginary third person who used to live there, walked in and decided to secure the place and stay.

This means that once you are inside and have secured your building you cannot be evicted until the owner or the owner’s representatives, such as security guards or hired henchpersons, ask you to leave. When this happens, don’t simply let them in; talk to them through the door if possible. Demand to see their ID and some authorisation that they are acting on behalf of the owner.

Police and neighbours cannot order you to leave without prior direction from the owner. Knowing who the owner is and what he or she plans to do with the building is important because it will help you see through the lies potential evictors are likely to tell you, for example, that they are the owners and they need to start construction of an apartment block. You also may be able to bluff them into believing you’ve made an agreement with the owner regarding your living there. When demanding to see their ID, don’t reveal the name of the owner — this only will make it easier for wannabe evictors. If they cannot prove they’re authorised to act, tell them they are not legally empowered to ask you to leave and ask them to go away. Be careful and assertive, and don’t be intimidated into leaving when you don’t have to.

If they do have proof of authorisation and they ask you to leave, try talking them into letting you stay, or at least negotiate for some leeway: a few weeks or days to pack up your things and find somewhere else. Sometimes they may go away and not bother you for months. Other times they may come back with police when you are even less prepared. Either way it will give you some time to work out want you want to do — fortify the place, move your stuff out, open up another squat or organise an eviction party/protest/media event.

If they are authorised to act and they ask you to leave and you refuse, you could be arrested for trespass under the Inclosed Lands Protection Act, but this rarely happens. Arrests of squatters are very uncommon; most owners just want you off the property and are not interested in pressing charges.

If you are arrested you need only tell the police your name and your address (the address of your squat). You will be taken to the police station, your name and fingerprints will be taken, and you will probably be released quite quickly. You do not have to go to the police station unless you are arrested.

Don’t tell the police anything more than you have to: your name and the address of your squat. You do not have to answer any other questions, either before arrest or during interrogation. You must be informed of your right to remain silent during interrogation. DO NOT SAY ANYTHING!! Once you speak you cannot go back to being silent — it could go against you in court. Nothing can go against you in court for remaining silent to EVERY question.
You are entitled to a phone call: use this chance to call someone for help and legal assistance.

You should be allowed bail if the police are fairly certain as to your identity. If you don’t have ID you will have to verify your identity some other way. The police may hold you if they think you will re-offend (re-squat) which may be likely for squatters who cannot prove alternative means of accommodation. If this happens, tell them you will be staying at a friend’s house. If you are not allowed bail you must be brought before a magistrate within a ‘reasonable’ time. The magistrate will either give you bail, remand you (only in exceptional circumstances) or hear the charge."



I hope this helps.

 

[nww]

If they can be defined as squatters,
Why don't you contact the council and have the water cut off.
I know here on the Central coast it only costs $70 to do but will cost
you much more to have reconnected.

 

[Piston Broke]

Time to get real, most of what that manual suggests is illegal:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ilpa1901264/
4 Unlawful entry on inclosed lands
(1) Any person who, without lawful excuse (proof of which lies on the person), enters into inclosed lands without the consent of the owner, occupier or person apparently in charge of those lands, or who remains on those lands after being requested by the owner, occupier or person apparently in charge of those lands to leave those lands, is liable to a penalty

How they got there does'nt matter.

If they are authorised to act and they ask you to leave and you refuse, you could be arrested for trespass under the Inclosed Lands Protection Act, but this rarely happens. Arrests of squatters are very uncommon; most owners just want you off the property and are not interested in pressing charges.

But if they want, you will be arrested. And if you don't leave you will be arrested. And if you re-offend you will be arrested.

The police may hold you if they think you will re-offend (re-squat) which may be likely for squatters who cannot prove alternative means of accommodation.

They can squat at the local station.

But here's the fun part:

the owner or the owner’s representatives, such as security guards or hired hench persons, ask you to leave. When this happens, don’t simply let them in;

Dont let them in? lol.
Though their argument is just like saying "I found robbers in the property who used force on us. My mates were with me cause we were going to the pub for a quiet drink. I told them i had to check something on the way".
"When they seen us they tried to not let us in and got real violent".
"We did'nt mean to harm them, you don't roll up to your property and expect ransackers".
"Is there anyone who would'nt try to protect their property? It's the Australian way."

 

[willair]

My brother owns a home.
He invited a guy to come and live with him a few months back.
Then he had to go overseas to work and has asked me to look after the property, giving me full power of attorney to act for him.

If you have full power of attorney then just sell the property the way it is there are ways to get problem people out,public health risk is always a good one to start on,but to be serious and to save you a lot of worry and stress just tell your brother to jump on a plane and fix his own problem.
willair

 

[Pa1nter]

Go to the power box and pull the fuses,
Take them with you,no one will stay in a house with no hot water,lights,stove etc.
They will not spend money on someone else's house to get it fixed

 

[wylie]

I wonder if the insurance on the house would cover any damage? They are not tenants, there is no lease, but the first "squatter" was invited to live with your brother.

I wouldn't hurt to find out who the insurer is, where your brother stands regarding any damage and whether the insurer will possibly take it up with the police to minimise any further damage.

You have tried to minimise damage, but police are not helping you.

Just a thought.....

 

[Fudge]

I wonder if the insurance on the house would cover any damage? They are not tenants, there is no lease, but the first "squatter" was invited to live with your brother.

....

No Lease, no landlord Insurance cover!!

I have heard (don't know whether true though), that some insurance agencies won't provide a policy (or continue a policy) when tenancy reverts to a periodic lease?

F

 

[skater]

I don't have any first hand information on squatters and how to get rid of them. Maybe this will help.
http://www.ehow.com/how_5120628_evict-squatters.html