Granny Flat Approval - A guide.

[brazen]

Hi Serge

What are the requirements when the whole downstairs area becomes the granny flat. Do the walls of the GF have to be fireproof or only the ceiling? The house was originally a pole home and the lower area was built in downstairs to create the extra space with its own access and no internal staircase between the top and bottom. Do the poles have to be entirely boxed in or is it ok just to seal the top where it meets the ceiling?

cheers, RS

Hey Rockstar,

There are 4 ways to solve this problem. All require the walls to be lined with 'Approved Fire
Grade Linings'. See this brochure from the National Timber Development Council. It has illustrations for 'Wall to Floor/Ceiling Junctions'. The pictures are really cool and easy to understand.

Remember that the junctions under & above walls also must be fire-rated. It's why it can be expensive. Look about 1/2 way down the document.
Figure 1(b) uses additional solid timber with adequate thickness and timber grade.
Figure 3(a) uses existing solid timber and a metal angle piece.
Figure 3(b) uses existing solid timber and fire-retardant sealant.
Figure 3 (c) uses existing solid timber and approved fire-graded lining as mentioned above.

Note, this^ is only for floor/ceiling junctions such as the situation you asked about.

There are illustrations there on wall-to-wall junctions as well.

I just can't believe the Council guy told bb that she won't need fire-rated walls between the newly created dwellings! Bloody scary; will he pay the insurance if there's a fire? heh.

http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/publications/PDF/InfoBull1.pdf

Cheers,

Serge.

 

[ditzy dame]

OMG
that must all mean something to someone all that info on the fire rating material.
but i would rather do heart surgery on myself than try and understand it.

i ask myself why did i get started on this concept.??

the building i wanted most of all is double brick and i think the walls internally are also brick so i suppose if that was true it would be some help.

the council person was actually a woman and i dont now remember the name as i have spoken to a few.
i really would have looked at all this quite differently if i had known about the firewalls.......and thank god i didnt get to sell months ago and buy the house i really want..... believing what i then believed.
or even purchase one of the very few possible available right now to extend.

i am just soooooooo glad i asked my dumb questions here right now or i would be in a mess.
i may end up having to modify my concept or rearrange my thoughts depending on finances.........but at least now i am somewhat wiser

thanks brazen

 

[twodogs]

And now for the front setback

Hi Brazen,

A query on how to calculate front setback for complying development, this is where I am looking for the rules

3.14 Setbacks of dwelling houses and ancillary development from roads, other than classified roads

(1) A dwelling house and all ancillary development on a lot must have a setback from the boundary with a primary road that is not a classified road of at least:
(a) the average distance of the setbacks of the nearest 2 dwelling houses having a boundary with the same primary road and located within 40m of the lot on which the dwelling house is erected, or

Hope that is the right place.

How does this handle adjoining battle-axe houses? See attached example. Corner site to be developed is "A" and has 5m setback, "B" has 9m, "C" is say 20m being battle-axe and "D" is 6m.

Thanks for the patience with these questions.

 

[brazen]

Hi twodogs,

The battle-axe allotment 'C' can be left out in this example since the 2 nearest dwellings to your lot are the dwellings on lots 'B' and 'C'. So just use the average of these.

I'm yet to design or build a granny flat in a front yard although it is perceivable that it will happen one day- if the main dwelling is set back miles compared to the neighbouring.

Cheers,

Serge

 

[twodogs]

Hi Brazen,

I applied all these rules to where I want to build, and I find that my corner lot is almost useless under complying development.

The primary frontage is the long frontage, as the house is addressed on that street, but in other respects it faces the left and the long frontage is fenced just as would be expected for a corner lot.

On the "primary" frontage, the house is only 5m back but the nearest houses are 9m and 12m. This means the granny flat must be back 10.5m from the street leaving bugger all room for a flat.

If the house officially addressed the other street, then the flat could be setback just 3m from what would be a secondary frontage.

Council DA may well allow a lesser frontage, but their other requirements are harder to meet.

I guess these SEPP rules cover the average place, but a corner block addressing to the wrong street means common sense is not applicable

 

[brazen]

Hi Brazen,

I applied all these rules to where I want to build, and I find that my corner lot is almost useless under complying development.

The primary frontage is the long frontage, as the house is addressed on that street, but in other respects it faces the left and the long frontage is fenced just as would be expected for a corner lot.

On the "primary" frontage, the house is only 5m back but the nearest houses are 9m and 12m. This means the granny flat must be back 10.5m from the street leaving bugger all room for a flat.

If the house officially addressed the other street, then the flat could be setback just 3m from what would be a secondary frontage.

Council DA may well allow a lesser frontage, but their other requirements are harder to meet.

I guess these SEPP rules cover the average place, but a corner block addressing to the wrong street means common sense is not applicable

Yea I hear you twodogs. It sucks when that happens, especially with the 3 m rear setback rule. It doesn't leave much room when the house is set way back on the block like that and on an angle too.

The question is whether there's enough legal space for a granny flat in your rear yard. You can look at applying to Council directly as you stated there, albeit for a higher overall cost--- around $5,500 (SEPP design + approval) versus $8,500 by going a DA/CC. Yes it's $3,000 more but probably still worth it for the value + return you'll get. This is assuming it will meet Council's controls. Some blocks just don't work for detached granny flats though


Cheers,

Serge.

 

[devo76]

Guys. When I made a phone call about this in regards to primary frontage and secondary when working out setbacks.
They acknowledged that although my actual frontage is on one street. The granny flat showed a clear frontage to the secondary street and I could work out the setbacks from this side street. I didn't get this in writing but they had a meeting and discussed it.
My flat is attached if that makes a difference.
Definitely worth making phone calls. The longer you chat the more they share the little tricks and finer details.

 

[brazen]

Guys. When I made a phone call about this in regards to primary frontage and secondary when working out setbacks.
They acknowledged that although my actual frontage is on one street. The granny flat showed a clear frontage to the secondary street and I could work out the setbacks from this side street. I didn't get this in writing but they had a meeting and discussed it.
My flat is attached if that makes a difference.
Definitely worth making phone calls. The longer you chat the more they share the little tricks and finer details.

Yes but that's Council (DA/CC) not the State SEPP; which is infinitely easier to get approval with.

 

[devo76]

Yes but that's Council (DA/CC) not the State SEPP; which is infinitely easier to get approval with.

Actually it was the state SEPP that I was talking to. It might be one of those things were you speak to two people and you get two different answers.

 

[brazen]

Actually it was the state SEPP that I was talking to. It might be one of those things were you speak to two people and you get two different answers.

The State SEPP is VERY specific on where to measure from on corner blocks. If your Council is willing to bend the rules and see your secondary boundary as your primary boundary, take it but with a grain of salt.

I mean, just beware. Council's say one thing today then forget/ignore it tomorrow.i.e. Get the Officer's name and document his/her promise before spending your hard-earned cash on the design plans etc.

Serge.

 

[devo76]

The State SEPP is VERY specific on where to measure from on corner blocks. If your Council is willing to bend the rules and see your secondary boundary as your primary boundary, take it but with a grain of salt.

I mean, just beware. Council's say one thing today then forget/ignore it tomorrow.i.e. Get the Officer's name and document his/her promise before spending your hard-earned cash on the design plans etc.

Serge.

Thanks mate. I know what you mean about a grain of salt. I nothing is gospel until the ink is dry.
With my situation my first point of call is NSW planning and it is them that gave me the OK about the side boundary !!! Weird.
If that ends up being misinformation I will go the local council which I have already complied with. Just trying to save $$$$ now.

 

[CruzCrtl]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm glad it's doing some good.

Hi, Brazen

Just wondering if the same logic apply to 2nd floor extenstion? My IP is a semi locates in Sydney south.

Cheers CC

 

[brazen]

Hi, Brazen

Just wondering if the same logic apply to 2nd floor extenstion? My IP is a semi locates in Sydney south.

Cheers CC

This thread (and my field of work) mainly applies to detached granny flats but the same logic applies for attached granny flats, with some differences....you dont have to worry about trees/easements/drainage if the proposed granny flat will exist within the existing dwelling. ie there are no extension works proposed; otherwise the approval process is the same.

 

[brazen]

Hi, Brazen

Just wondering if the same logic apply to 2nd floor extenstion? My IP is a semi locates in Sydney south.

Cheers CC

I see what youy mean now- extendin up only? The same setback rules apply, since you are physically extending the dwelling; even though the footprint is the same.

So, 900 mm side and 3 m rear setbacks still apply but only for the extension works.

e.g. If the existing house is, say, 500 mm from the side boundary, you'd have to ensure the upstairs ext. wall is minimum 900 mm from that side boundary. This can be achieved with supporting columns/beam(s).

 

[twodogs]

Car Parking

Hi Brazen,

I know there are no requirements for additional parking when building an GF (and if an existing garage is converted then its space must be replaced) but are there any requirements for the suitability of existing car parking spaces, such as setbacks, surface and size?

If the existing house didn't even have a dedicated parking space (no hardstand, no carport or garage either), how does this work?

 

[brazen]

Hi Brazen,

I know there are no requirements for additional parking when building an GF (and if an existing garage is converted then its space must be replaced) but are there any requirements for the suitability of existing car parking spaces, such as setbacks, surface and size?

If the existing house didn't even have a dedicated parking space (no hardstand, no carport or garage either), how does this work?

I see some conditions regarding size and location of parking spaces for group homes. With regard to secondary dwellings (granny flats), though, it only states:

"Note. There is no requirement that additional parking spaces be provided in respect of development for the purposes of a secondary dwelling"

 

[stinadaze]

Hi Brazen, I read in another thread (which I can’t find again!!) that “The Sydney Water Board's Sewer Location Print” and “Deposit Plan” are both important to help determine if a granny flat is viable to build.

Where do I get these from if there is a property we are interested in but have not yet purchased?

Thanks!!

 

[twodogs]

If the property is for sale then all this will be part of the contract and the agent can supply.

 

[stinadaze]

thanks! wanted to make sure before I asked the agent!

 

[brazen]

Yea if the Sewer Main's (labeled as 'Board's Sewer') is close to the back boundary, that's not usually a bad thing since the rear setback for granny flats is minimum 3 mtrs anyway...so we are usually adequately distanced from it. I say usually because the Sewer's depth has a major impact on the minimum distance we need to be away from it.

Sydney Water Policy says we must be at least 2x sewer's depth away in order to avoid quite hefty protection costs. It's an odd rule...but it works like this:

If, say, the Sewer Mains' is 2m deep, you need to be twice that depth away. That's 4m from the pipe! If you want to build closer to it than that, you need to pay a Sydney Water contractor about $500 to do a 'peg-out', plus additional fees for a 'Sydney Water Coordinator to stamp the Site Plan PLUS an Engineer to design special footings for the structure PLUS additioanl inspections by Sydney Water during construction... All of this costs approx $1,700!

If, however, the same Sewer is only 1m deep, you only have to be 2m away from it (2x the depth)...so that's not so bad.


Conclusion: DEPTH of BOARD'S SEWER can be very critical when it's located in the rear yard.

Now, to make matters trickier, the rough-looking plan you'll see in the Sales Contract DOES NOT show sewer depth. Ever. It might say someting like 6" VCP (vitrious clay pipe) and show some other figures in feet/inches, but they are distances to the nearest junction only- not depth. Sewer depth is NOT listed on that black and white print in the contract.

The only way to determine the depth is to either:
1. Register with DIALB4UDIG and get the print from them:
http://1100.com.au/default.aspx
These require a trained eye to read them.
2. Go to a Quick-Check Agent and ask them for a printout (they charge a fee) and if they're in a good mood, they'll read them for you. NSW locations:
http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Buildingdeveloping/QuickCheck/QuickCheckAgents.cfm
3. The sewer prints are only rough approximations of sewer location, so if it's a close call, we have to do the following..get a peg-out done. These cost about $500. Sometimes we must do this because the records aren't very clear and noone knows what depth she's at...it's a pain.
4. Get an architectural moron (like me) to check it all out for you and provide a clear report, along with all of the other property searches, Section 149 Certificate compliance checks, check all easements and pipelines, any covenants, check Council slope/drainage constraints etc.

So, in purchasing a new property it pays to check this all out thoroughly.

Ironically (for a detached granny flat) you can have Sewer dangerously close but, sometimes, it's just at the right distance to allow for the 3m rear setback plus be close enough to easily connect to it- hence you save a lot on digging pipes.
The sewerage goldilocks zone if you will