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However I really don't see any good reason for Banks to support Brokers with good commissions or anything else. In a growing market, if a Bank decides that they can capture more market share through the use of Brokers then that's all great for the Brokers. In a contracting market, if that same Bank decides it can service its customers adequately with its own workforce and the Brokers aren't really adding any value, then why should they encourage them? If Brokers add value to the Bank they will be rewarded, if not they won't.

If the market turns around then it will be all good news for Brokers. For a Bank, Brokers should only be used to manage the work load so they don't have to hire and fire so much to keep up with the cycles. Bit hard to complain about it at the low point of the cycle...

Keep in mind that it's the customers (eg ME!) who actually pay those broker commissions! :eek:

HiEquity you've raised some very valid points, I don't disagree with anything you've stated here. If brokers don't add value to a lender there's no reason for that lender to use brokers as a distribution network. I'm also aware that ultimately it's the borrower who pays me, via the banks. Brokers certainly don't work for free, but I'm fairly sure branch staff and dedicated mobile lenders don't either.

One of the many differences is that brokers don't work for the banks. I've never seen a branch manager suggest a consumer go elsewhere because their competitor as a more appropriate product.

All that aside, the original point I was trying to make is that if there's only half a dozen major players in the market, it's not an environment of healthy competition. Banks have cut brokers commissions because they can. I'm annoyed at this but as it will also reduce my competition it's also an opportunity (there are predictions of 30% of brokers leaving the industry over the next few years).

With only a few lenders available, what's to stop them from doing the same to consumers? We've already lenders raise interest rates beyond what many consider reasonable. Fees and charges have gone up. They engage in monopolistic practices and often perform acts which are clearly not in the interests of consumers. Again this does represent an opportunity for brokers. Unfortunately I can't see where the opportunity for consumers is.
 
Okay, using what you've just said, let's apply that to groceries. My local corner store doesn't have the same buying power as Woolworths, so you think it's a good idea for the government to step in and let that corner store access wholesale groceries at the same price as Woolworths despite being a much smaller and less efficient business?
Great example... kudos.

I agree with Dazz... just buy bank shares!
 
Unfortunately I can't see where the opportunity for consumers is.

The banks are competing very heavily on price in the deposit space - more so than they've done in a decade. Plenty of opportunities for consumers wanting good deposit rates.

More people are currently wanting to borrow than invest. As such, why should there be opportunities for borrowers?
 
Not everyone has cash to deposit. Not everyone has multiple investment properties. For a lot of people, a mortgage is a dream - the home ownership dream. Financially stronger people can ride changes in competition levels. It’s the weaker people that rely on the market and/or government to ensure that home ownership is a real possibility for as many people as possible. A less competitive market or market with fewer players will make that a lot more difficult. In the same way, we need more competition in the mortgage insurance market as well – for example, in the US they can pay mortgage insurance on a monthly basis rather than one lump sum – doesn’t that sound better?

Australian has one of the highest home ownership percentages in the world... let's keep it that way!
 
Hi PT. I know you're a broker and this is a forum mainly consisting of brokers so I'll try to be diplomatic... :) However I really don't see any good reason for Banks to support Brokers with good commissions or anything else. In a growing market, if a Bank decides that they can capture more market share through the use of Brokers then that's all great for the Brokers. In a contracting market, if that same Bank decides it can service its customers adequately with its own workforce and the Brokers aren't really adding any value, then why should they encourage them? If Brokers add value to the Bank they will be rewarded, if not they won't....

If the market turns around then it will be all good news for Brokers. For a Bank, Brokers should only be used to manage the work load so they don't have to hire and fire so much to keep up with the cycles. Bit hard to complain about it at the low point of the cycle...

Keep in mind that it's the customers (eg ME!) who actually pay those broker commissions! :eek:



If the securitised lenders can compete they will - if they can't they will fall away. I'm sure they will reappear pretty quickly if there was money to be made and they provided value to consumers. That includes the possibility of the Banks further increasing their margins.

At the end of the day, there is only so much money available from deposit funds and the marginal price of money for home loans will be set by the cost of securitisation. The Banks can offer lower rates now because they have a bigger proportion of deposit monies there to use compared to the others. You could say they are therefore providing a "discount" to the real price of money as fully seen and passed on by the securitised lenders. They may well remove their discount but will be limited in their ability to do so not by the securitised lenders but by competition between themselves...

Should government intervene to enforce that discount? Not IMO - it's a competitive advantage of operating a diversified Bank of significant size. Govt interference with that won't make our economy anymore efficient - someone will still have to pay...

As a borrower, I am more concerned with the best outcome for me, not the banks. They will worry about their business model themselves. But a good broker will provide me (the user of the funds) with a better outcome. That's all I am concerned with.

So if competition is lessened in the market, I will lose out.

I cannot believe as purchasers of finance to fund wealth acquisition, why we would not want to have a strong consumer advocates position on the price of our biggest cost input :confused:
 
In the same way, we need more competition in the mortgage insurance market as well – for example, in the US they can pay mortgage insurance on a monthly basis rather than one lump sum – doesn’t that sound better?

Not to me it doesn't. Not when you take into account that LMI is considerably more expensive in the US as a result of all the extra administration that occurs with monthly payments as opposed to lump sums. Much more paperwork for the consumer as well. All in all, it's a pretty bad deal compared to what we have here, IMO.
 
Not to me it doesn't. Not when you take into account that LMI is considerably more expensive in the US as a result of all the extra administration that occurs with monthly payments as opposed to lump sums. Much more paperwork for the consumer as well. All in all, it's a pretty bad deal compared to what we have here, IMO.

So consider the situation (which is common) where an investor buys an IP, borrowers 90%, only pays a month by month LMI premium and then refi's after 12 months because LVR's down to 80%. Unless you know something that I don't, that would work out to be much cheaper.
 
Not to me it doesn't. Not when you take into account that LMI is considerably more expensive in the US as a result of all the extra administration that occurs with monthly payments as opposed to lump sums. Much more paperwork for the consumer as well. All in all, it's a pretty bad deal compared to what we have here, IMO.

Not really. The banks make a profit by lending money to people. Its in their interests to lend as much as they can.

Yes... also at the highest rate they can!
 
So if competition is lessened in the market, I will lose out.

I cannot believe as purchasers of finance to fund wealth acquisition, why we would not want to have a strong consumer advocates position on the price of our biggest cost input :confused:

What is competition? Is it purely measured by the number of players in the market? No - provided you have a reasonable number of competing players (and we do for the small size of the Australian market) then you have healthy competition. Provided also there is no collusion or other illegal activity going on...

If someone wants to play in this market but their source of funds is more expensive than the existing players, should we subsidise them just so they can compete? No - it won't help competition because the problem is their source of funds and the money for the subsidy will no doubt be extracted from us through other means (like the tax system).

I fully agree the market should be free and open for anyone to compete but if a company's business model is wrong for the market conditions then that's their risk to take - not ours... They alone should wear the consequences.

And the players who actually have a competitive business / funding model can fight it out over who gets what slice of the market. Healthy competition requires players who can actually compete - without subsidy!
 
If someone wants to play in this market but their source of funds is more expensive than the existing players, should we subsidise them just so they can compete? No - it won't help competition because the problem is their source of funds and the money for the subsidy will no doubt be extracted from us through other means (like the tax system).

I suggest you have a read of my website and links to the MBS report. I am not suggesting smaller lenders be subsidised - I have said this before. Smaller lenders would pay a market risk weighted rate to access funds from the government sponsored entity.
 
So consider the situation (which is common) where an investor buys an IP, borrowers 90%, only pays a month by month LMI premium and then refi's after 12 months because LVR's down to 80%. Unless you know something that I don't, that would work out to be much cheaper.

Well in that particular case, their LMI rates would be considerably higher to start with because they are an investor (in the US most LMI's differentiate their rates by OO vs Investors).

Secondly, in the US you'll find that most lenders require LMI above 60% LVRs, not 80%. So refinancing at 80% LVR will often lead to cheaper LMI rates, but still require LMI to be paid. The 80% threshold for LMI in Australia is pretty much a consequence of having up front LMI payments - where those that refinance early and don't claim back LMI payments effectively cross-subsidise those that would otherwise be paying LMI from 60% to 80%. If you were to introduce monthly payments in Australia, you'd very quickly find LMI being required for much lower LVRs.

Thirdly, it only works out cheaper if property prices appreciate significantly. In the US the LMI can (and does) request revaluations (at the borrower's expense) if they believe property prices have fallen (in the US, most LMI is taken out directly by the borrower as a pre-req to being able to borrow - not negotiated in bulk by the bank). If the LVR is higher, the LMI is then charged on the revalued LVR. LMI rates increase much faster with LVR in the US than in Australia.
 
I suggest you have a read of my website and links to the MBS report. I am not suggesting smaller lenders be subsidised - I have said this before. Smaller lenders would pay a market risk weighted rate to access funds from the government sponsored entity.

Sorry Stuart but this is semantics. The market has already weighted the risk and the current IR differentials are the outcome. You wouldn't be advocating this if it didn't enable smaller lenders to access funds on lower rates than the market currently gives them. This is a "subsidy" in my book however you want to spin it. Someone has to pay for this risk - who?
 
Sorry Stuart but this is semantics. The market has already weighted the risk and the current IR differentials are the outcome. You wouldn't be advocating this if it didn't enable smaller lenders to access funds on lower rates than the market currently gives them. This is a "subsidy" in my book however you want to spin it. Someone has to pay for this risk - who?

No. As I have said. I am not advocating smaller lenders paying lower rates. As I said, I agree that smaller lenders must pay "market" rates according to their risk profile. I am not "spinning" this anyway... why would I? I have nothing to gain (in fact, the site is costing me money to set up and one of my staff collating the petition).

I think this discussion is going nowhere. Thank you and good bye.
 
Any lender that can sell AAA mortgage backed securities... big 4, St George, Suncorp, Adelaide Bank, Resi, etc... many non-bank lenders (also these lenders tend to fund small mortgage managers so it’s a great outcome).

However, I would like to see a longer term commitment to create certainty.
 
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