Hold tight until the end of the decade before any real property upswing

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Opinion/...r/2005/01/19/1106110809219.html?oneclick=true

Hold tight until the end of the decade before any real property upswing begins, writes Peter Martin.

So you think the slump in real estate is over? You are in good company. On Tuesday the research chief at Australian Property Monitors declared house prices might have "finally reached their floor". A day later real estate agent Ivan Bresic said the market looked "set to come back strongly in 2005".

They must be talking to the agents I've been talking to.

For six months my wife and I have been searching for a house. We sold and then rented while we talked to agent after agent. They all seemed to be decent people. None of them lied about the state of the houses they were selling. But when we asked about the state of the market they began to babble.

Prices were just about to pick up. They could sense it. They were getting more inquiries. Some confided that they believed prices were already moving up. This was at a time when Sydney prices were relentlessly falling and when the agents themselves were coming back to us with progressively lower asking prices.

If the agents had their heads in the stratosphere when it came to prices, the economists I met at an annual forecasting conference in December could not have been more firmly grounded.

Each year the executive of Australian Business Economists (ABE) presents its forecasts for the 12 months ahead. On the committee are Australia's leading private-sector forecasters, among them the economic chiefs at Westpac, Qantas and Macquarie Bank.

Not a single member of that committee expects an increase in overall house prices during the next 12 months. The committee's forecast is for a fall in prices of between 5 and 10 per cent. And it says there's no sign of a pick-up beyond that. There won't be a "meaningful" increase in prices until the end of the decade.

So who are you going to believe? On one hand it must be said real estate agents are pretty personable, and that until recently they seemed to have had a good grasp on the way prices were moving. On the other, it must be said that economists, while less impressive socially, tend to get the difficult forecasts right.

The past year was extraordinarily difficult to forecast. When it began, prices were still soaring. And yet the ABE's forecasting team correctly picked that there would be a downturn and got its magnitude about right.

And I have another reason for throwing my lot in with the economists. It's the broad sweep of real estate history.

Professor Peter Abelson, from Macquarie University, has done anyone interested in house prices a huge favour by putting together reliable data for each Australian city going back to 1970. It wasn't easy. Much of what has previously passed for good data has been suspect, depending on the sales the agents themselves have chosen to report.

Abelson got around this by using state Land Titles Office data where he could and also the work of a clerk in the Tax Office who compiled figures for Hobart as a hobby.

When adjusted for inflation, Abelson's data points to four distinct house price booms in Australia, each separated by years of stagnant or falling prices. The first thing to note is that each of the first three booms was short. Beginning in 1971, 1979 and 1987, each lasted two to three years. The most recent boom is the exception. It lasted from 1996 to 2003.

The second thing to note is that after each boom collapsed it took five to seven years for Sydney prices to crawl back to their previous real level. And Abelson believes the true story on prices is even grimmer than those figures suggest. That's because houses are getting bigger. New homes have typically 40 per cent more floor space than they did 20 years ago. And existing homes are continually being extended at the owners' expense.

If a house that used to sell for $400,000 now sells for $700,000 but has an extra bedroom and a living room and a deck, it didn't really increase in price by $300,000.

Comparing like with like, Australia's house price booms have been shallower than is widely believed and the slumps between them have lasted even longer: some for the best part of a decade.

If you are an owner who still wants to feel optimistic about the decade ahead, or perhaps an agent, you are perfectly entitled to declare this doesn't matter. History won't repeat itself. Sydney will be spared. But you would need a good argument. The ones that I have heard don't stand up.

One is that Sydney prices move differently to those in the rest of Australia. Abelson's figures show prices in all Australian cities move surprisingly closely together, with the recent movements in Sydney particularly closely tied to those in Brisbane and Melbourne. Only in Perth and Canberra have prices at times shot up on their own: in Perth's case because of a mining boom, and in Canberra's case following the election of Labor governments.

Another argument is that Sydney is becoming an international city, accepting the bulk of new migrants. It is true that Sydney takes in more new arrivals than any other Australian city, and that once here they typically stay here. But that puts less pressure on the NSW population than you might imagine. Migration pulls in about 40,000 people each year. But at the same time about 30,000 locals move out, mostly to Queensland and Victoria. As a result Sydney's population is actually growing more slowly than either Brisbane's or Melbourne's.

None of this need disturb real estate-obsessed Sydneysiders. If you own a house you've enjoyed a spectacular capital gain. On Abelson's figures, since 1980 the real value of your home has more than doubled. Even allowing for the money you have spent on improvements it has increased 75 per cent.

But savour it while you can. That gain will shrink if, as the economists expect, real house prices head down.
 
Punchy said:
Only in Perth and Canberra have prices at times shot up on their own: in Perth's case because of a mining boom, and in Canberra's case following the election of Labor governments.
So I hope the voters get it right next election!

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Im an economist (allegedly) Ive got a few pieces of paper to prove it - and some high marks to go along with it - Ive worked with a Nobel prize winner - I work in the financial services industry - well I do for a bit longer (thats another story)

Big *$% deal.

Ive been out in the real world a bit more than most economists...

One of my favourite quote is...

An economist is the only scientist who can "definitively" explain why what they predicted to happen yesterday did not happen today
 
Punchy,
its like standing on soap box on a street corner,selling religion
You have to be a believer,or you arent going to go anywhere
in any investment setup.
good luck
willair..
 
Punchy said:
Migration pulls in about 40,000 people each year. But at the same time about 30,000 locals move out, mostly to Queensland and Victoria. As a result Sydney's population is actually growing more slowly than either Brisbane's or Melbourne's.
I wasn't sure about those figures and statements, but they do seem to roughly reflect ABS stats (click on the "Population for States & Territories" link) :
http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/d3310114.nsf/Home/Popular Statistics

Also interesting to know that we've finally cracked the 20Mil mark for national population ! :)
 
.

When I listen to an argument I pay attention to what is being said. That is why I can be persuaded on many issues. Not because I am weak but because I have enough self esteem to admit that I may be wrong. That's why I post here. To get a balanced view to the Bear site I also read.

That being said. I also pay attention to any bias a person may have. You know. A Real Estate agent saying how great the market is may, just may, be biased. Like the prostitute who tells her clients that they were the best.

Once the market has settled I sincerely hope that there is legislation put in to ensure accurate data collection relating to this industry. That vested interests have a muzzle put on, and that people who should not have given investment advice but did are brought to task.

I don't expect anyone on this forum to be anything but Bullish. I find it refreshing and insiteful. Believe me when I say that I don't wish you personally ill. I stated in an earlier post that I hold no malice to anyman with the exception of peodophiles and torturers.
 
Hi all,

One of my pet hates is how "economists" are so sucessful in getting it wrong. In this case not the numbers, but how you can use those numbers to your advantage.

For example, if I bought a house for $100,000 on 10% deposit today on an IO basis, I owe the bank $90,000.

Lets say we have inflation of 12% PA for the next 20 years. In year 20 the house that has only gone up by inflation is now "worth" $964,629.

But guess what?? I still only owe the bank $100,000.

In this position instead of the bank owning 90% while I only own 10% in year 1, by year 20 I own 90% and the bank only 10%, yet I never paid a cent off the loan!!!

Yet from the reputable economic professors, I will be no better off because the price of the house only matched inflation.

Ahh, to be in the ivory tower where you cannot see the real world, nor the wood from the trees.

bye
 
Huh?

Bill.L,

Your figures are too simplistic. You don't factor in the cost of interest, maintenance, land-tax, loss of rental income, CGT etc. Sure, you can provide estimates and averages for all that (and still come out on top) but you can't guarantee that it'll run like clockwork. At the end of the day it all boils down to how much risk are you willing to stake on everything going as planned for a period of 20 years.

Don't you realise that you too are playing a game of speculation, just like an economics professor?
 
Bill,

The point is that your buying power has not increased. You may have an asset worth almost $1M, instead of one worth $100K, but as its only matched inflation you're no better off in real terms. Sure you've gone from 10% to 90% equity but you've done this by paying the interest to hold the asset for 20 years. So, you've been paying 6% pa on the $100K. The good news is that with inflation, the repayments in real terms are going down. Even though they're fixed at $6K pa, the cost impost of these goes down over time due to inflation.

If inflation is under 6%, then you are actually going backwards until such time as the current value of the interest payments match inflation. I think inflation is historically around the 3% pa range, so if your paying 6% to hold an asset that's increasing by 3% then you're going backwards, at least initially.

Cheers,
Michael.
 
Don't forget that the tenant will be paying part of that 6% interest, if not more. Not to mention possible deductions which may make it CF+ in which case there may not be any holding costs at all.

Nat :)
 
Also remember that your gains are leveraged. i.e. if you used $100k in cash to buy a $100k asset today, and the return was 12% while inflation was also 12%, you're no better off at the end of x years. However, if you're buying a $1m asset you're getting leveraged gain.

Still, I don't think it's as simple as Nat says. You're definitely better off, but as everyone else said you have to factor in holding costs, rent, etc.

In a general sense, though, if your returns are above your costs you're ahead. With high inflation you may not be as far ahead, but you'll be ahead nevertheless.
Alex
 
Punchy said:
Like the prostitute who tells her clients that they were the best.


Hmmm all the women I've been with have said I was the best, no pros, but I'm definitely sure they weren't biased :D :cool: :D




On a more serious note, I have been and am heavily into property and I agree with you. I see no "real capital gains" in residential property anytime soon. :(

Unfortunately it's just the nature of the beast. We have after all enjoyed the longest and greatest residential boom Australia has ever seen. :D

Regards

Investor :)
 
Hi All

Peter Spann says we learn from our sucesses and not our mistakes. :)

That is , we repeat doing what works than trying to find out what did not and why.

That is why most here, due to the recent boom and gains, find it hard to "emotionally" to acknowledge that if growth is flat for say 2 years, and rates are 5% you WILL lose money holding a property, in simple terms.

Mentally we can see it is true but emotionally we have done so well in Property that we want to stay.

Personally, I am very critcial, analytical and cautious. Hence I sold out in 2003. I acted ahead of the heard and ws a little nervous in doing so. :eek:

A friend with more $$ than me, bought a dev site in 2003 and only now has a revised DA. He has improved the return but the market went the other way so he is essentially back where he was in 2003. Funny hay! But that friend can hold that property without much pain so overall he is ok. ;)

And I guess that is the crutch of it......

Property will always be a good investment. On average it will double every 10 years. If you have the cashflow to hold over ten years then buy,buy, buy. What does it matter if you buy at $250k drop to $200k for 5 year and rise to $500k in another 5 provided you dont sell or are forced to sell at any time other than year 10,.

So really the solution is fixed rates. That way you secure the pain at an agreed level. If rates go done , property goes up so you bought at a good price and that ok.

If you do the figures on holding verus purcahse price you can be suprised that purchase price has a lot more to do with the final return that the holding costs.

Just a thought, not a recomendation.

Regards, Peter 147
 
Interesting investor, women have said the same thing about me as well. We must have been with different women. ;)

A couple of points regarding real price movements, I think two qualitative points which have been missed. IMO, if you maintain ownership of property for a long period of time (eg 10 years), whether IP or PPOR, improvements/renovations are more than likely undertaken in conjunction with maintenance and general upkeep. If done correctly, you have ultimately added more value relative to the original cost of the asset, irrespective of any movements in prices.

Secondly, inflation has been mentioned as the benchmark for general prices, however, if you look at the cost of building/construction over the past 10 years, they would have well and truly out-stripped inflation. Whilst building activity has fallen, there is still is evidence of these costs rising over and above inflation. In addition to regulatory imposts eg better environmental standards, this all adds to the costs pressures of construction. Prices and price movements will have to reflect this economic reality as well and all previous factors.
 
Buzzlightyear makes a very good point.

Working in construction I notice most of the tradespersons are in their older years. As such supply is limited and demand high. Also experience equals quality and that is very lacking nowadays.

Materials are also constrained. Timber is harvested not cleared. And the quality is much reduced for longer spans.
Cheap imports are false economy.

Regulation has increased enormously. Rubbish dumping fees, parking fees, scafolding fee, DA and BA and section 94 fees all add up.

I agree totally that the costs of contruction has and will continue to out-run general inflation for years to come.

Peter 147
 
Meaning that established housing will increase in value.....because the replacement cost of materials & labour is higher :)

Not to mention that it is harder to create highly desireable housing locations.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
So if now is maybe not the best time to buy, is it a good time to build where you have already bought? (or more specifically, to re-build?) - in terms of building costs being likely to increase etc
Harpic
 
Harpic,

There's a case for it if you believe there's a long-term upwards trend in building costs and long-term downtrend in the number of builders (putting aside the periodic swings due to people choosing to enter a highly paid profession).

If so, it's better to build today than tomorrow UNLESS you can increase your wealth at a faster rate than the costs, in which case the future cost of building will be relatively less to you than the present cost.

I'd suggest that anyone deciding to rebuild needs to consider whether a new place will have a higher value in the future than they would receive through the appreciation in the current dwelling. Consider whether the return is measurably better in NPV terms over ten or twenty years than if you instead bought an IP in a well-performing area.

The old rule used to be that the more rooms the more value in a property, that's unlikely to continue holding if the average number of people per dwelling keeps dropping. (BTW cleaning large houses is a rapidly growing industry - and so is home cleaning automation)

I pity those people who made a decision to build a mini-mansion, or grass castle, with 4+ bedrooms for their teenage kids. In ten years time when they are empty nesters & seeking to downgrade to a more manageable property there will be significantly less people seeking that type of housing - hence I am anticipating a crash in the grass castle market over the next 20 years if our immigration policies don't change.

Cheers,

Aceyducey
 
Holding? Selling Or Buying?

Punchy I have a different view to the question "do you think the slump is over".

Simply,,,,, in areas we invest in there was no slump!
All areas are not governed or perform the sameway.


Jan Somers and overs including many on this forum have to remind us that buying property is an investment. And 20 mil people + an increase of at least .004% a year + not to mention the rest of the investing world determine how good each of our investments perform.

Also many variants determine what actually makes profit on a particular purchase! ie, Developer over speculated and built five homes. But has to sell one in 15 days cash or he has serious bank and legal problems so one picks up the home at 40% under value and one has a loss.

Economist, agents, press & Prime Minister's can only speculate and give their veiws. They don't play a major part in properties performance due to each price and locations.

And before one hammers me about rates, inflation and whoHa, common sense is needed to exist in a balanced way. If you invest! with a balance meaning cash and property it can only mean a stronger book. If Borrowing % rates increase so does deposit rates to balance that out.
Each of us stick our necks out at a different range due to the self belief we have in our choices and ability to repay or service.

I see so many negative thoughts RE the property Market. That's great as it can help people make their choice easier on bad areas at the time.

IMHO which is speculation is that investing is a must in some sort of way to improve ones financial position. How to do it today and next month,year is our choice.

Last month I gained a profit margin of 19% over 30 days on a share.
I also gained 28% profit on a property for that same time.
Lost 1- 3% on my car! (And the rest)
And backed the first 3 winners at warrick farm. (but backed the next 3 stone motherless)

My Choices were all positive in my plans of my speculation. So for many out there who ITHO believe there is no money out there to be made in property today should open ones eye a little more or just be a little more exact when they comment on property. Investor's comment was correct in his eyes " HE CAN NOT SEE REAL CAPITAL GAINS ON RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY ANYTIME SOON" that comment is justified and important to this forum. But there has been many who have said "THE MARKET HAS CEASED TO PROVIDE A PROFIT IN RESIDENTIAL PROPERTY"

The difference Between the two comments

Investor does not have my eyes along with many others & the other is not SPECULATING

Humble views from a humble person

OV
 
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