How I got from just a PPOR to multi millionaire retiree in 5 years using only OPM.

andy - thanks for taking time out to reply to my questions. my aim is to invest for yield to cover IP expenses. I thought many people here did this but after working out the figures, the yield is too low. So I thought my caculations were wrong.

I think I'll start with etrade ($500 free trades) and subscrive to intelligent investor and rivkin. Thanks everyone.

sorry to hijack your thread keithj but keep up with the contribution!
 
Generally it is regarded that exceeding 50% margin is getting very risky as per Keith's description, with Keith having an even lower threshold (nothing wrong with being conservative;))
Hi all,

handyandy is right. The max margin LVR I allow myself is 40%. However, I am in the wealth preservation/income phase, not the wealth creation phase. So 50% LVR may be more appropriate for other phases - it has more upside & downside potential. A 50% LVR allows for approx 28% decline before getting close to a margin call (assuming a quality portfolio).

Additionally, the stock market has been going up for 4 years, so I'd guess we're closer to the end of the bull run than the start. It's wiser to have a lower LVR in the later stages as downside risk increases (preferably 0%) - & a higher LVR earlier.

Margin loans have 4 major differences from IP investment loans that make them riskier -
  • higher interest rates - about 1% higher than IP loans
  • margin calls - this makes the headlines & puts many people off. It is a risk that can be managed using conservative LVRs.
  • banks can change the rules with no notice - they can change LVRs whenever they decide. This happen especially on small-cap cpys. A diversified portfolio helps mitigate this risk.
  • banks can call in the loan under certain circumstances. Eg. If the ASX drops 10% over 3 days (or something like that), then they are allowed to force you to sell & call in the loan. Check your margin loan agreement for the exact terms of your pareticular lender.

Cheers Keith
 
handyandy is right. The max margin LVR I allow myself is 40%. However, I am in the wealth preservation/income phase, not the wealth creation phase. So 50% LVR may be more appropriate for other phases - it has more upside & downside potential. A 50% LVR allows for approx 28% decline before getting close to a margin call (assuming a quality portfolio).
Keith,

Good point!

As I stated in my first reply to this thread, I am following a similar path to yourself but am further back down the path. I am still in the wealth creation phase of my financial life. As such I have taken on more risk willingly and am currently at a 60% LVR on my $800K of managed funds. However, I did this recognising the risk profile of the funds I am investing in and by building a $100K+ cash buffer just in case.

In fact, all of those managed fund dollars are borrowed. $300K is an LOC on my PPOR, and its margined up with $500K ML to the $800K total. You could argue that makes my LVR 100%, but from a margin call perspective its only 60% odd.

Once again, thanks for posting your experiences and achievements. This has been a great thread.

Cheers,
Michael.
 
Generally it is regarded that exceeding 50% margin is getting very risky...

We can minimize margin call risk by being selective, buying only stocks with high LVR ratio. When this is done correctly then 50% margin can be manageable.

How LVR works

I'll use Paladin Resources (PDN) as an illustration: At 40% LVR, Comsec will lend up to $0.40 for every $1.00 of stock value.

This means for every $0.60 of equity we can borrow $0.40, or, for every $1.00 of equity we can borrow $0.67.

The table will look like this:-

  • At 40% LVR, for every $1.00 equity we can borrow $0.67
  • At 60% LVR, for every $1.00 equity we can borrow $1.50
  • At 70% LVR, for every $1.00 equity we can borrow $2.33
  • At 75% LVR, for every $1.00 equity we can borrow $3.00

Important observation:-

1. Buy high LVR stocks to increase borrowing capacity

- By moving from 60% to 75% LVR stocks, the borrowing capacity is doubled (from $1.50 to $3.00)

- By moving from 70% to 75% LVR stocks, the borrowing capacity increases 28% (from $2.33 to $3.00)

  • 75% LVR stocks include most major banks (CBA, SGB, NAB, WBC, ANZ), some insurance (AMP, QBE, SUN), some properties (SGP, GPT, WDC), some resources (BHP, RIO, WPL)
  • 70% LVR stocks covers most stocks on the ASX 100

2. Avoid stocks with low LVR for the above reason

- I mostly trade 70% stocks and some 60% (like gold stocks NCM, LHG). 75% stocks are good for borrowing but tend to grow slower.

3. At time of stress, we can sell low LVR stocks first to increase the overall LVR ratio of the whole portfolio

- Another option is to swap low LVR with higher LVR stocks (to allow us buying more stocks for the same equity amount or to have a larger $ buffer until the margin call limit is hit)

Back to the question: Is an portfolio with 50% margin risky?

This depends on what stocks are held in the portfolio:

  • If this portfolio consists of stocks averaging at 60% LVR, it can sustain 17% value drop to hit maximum LVR limit and be called at 23%
  • At 70%, it can sustain 29% value drop and be called at 34%
  • At 75%, it can sustain 33% value drop and be called at 38%

As a guide, the XAO dropped 13% over the 9/11 period and 9% over the May 2006 correction.

PS. All of this is of general discussion, not advice.
 
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Just to add to Kensters excellent points.

Regarding pt 3. In times of financial stress the lower quality stocks (eg those with lower LVRs) are harder to sell - there are fewer buyers. I hold a couple of quality stocks with 0% margin allowed (the reason for the shocking LVR is their lack of liquidity). I too intend to sell those first IF there are buyers.

Remember that the margin lenders can change the rules anytime they choose. Bank LVRs of 75% can be reduced if they choose - at the start of the boom I believe they were upped to 75% from 70%. I would expect the lower quality (40% LVR) cpys to be under serious financial stress too - the lenders would probably reduce their LVR to 0%.

I feel relating 9/11 and the 13% fall in XAO is not a valid portrayal of a worst case scenario. To be brutal - 9/11 really only affected a few hundred thousand people. Conversely a lack of confidence in stocks and a global switch to bonds or IP or gold would affect billions. Think 50% fall - although I don't think there is much chance of it happening ATM.

If bad stuff happens and causes a 25% fall in ASX, then it will probably be an excellent buying opportunity. By keeping a low LVR, there will be cash available to buy these bargains. Anyone with a high LVR is unlikely to have that option.

I agree with all Kensters points, I just wanted to present an alternative (albeit more conservative & value oriented) view.
 
The rough figures -
Draw down $1M equity from IPs – interest (5.95% fixed for 5 yrs!!) = $60K
Borrow $400K margin loan & buy shares – interest $0 – it's all capitalised (this is the LOE bit)
Dividends on $1.4M shares @7.5% - $105K
Nett income- $45K
NB The ATO considers that I pay the interest on the margin loan & borrow it again. So my taxable income is actually -ve.
As I need more than $45K income, I just draw it down from the margin loan.
I then had gross assets of $2.4M (+PPOR).
I was hoping the shares/IP would grow by their long term average 7%ish or $180K the first year, therefore covering the drawdowns for personal use & also the margin interest. Diversifying into shares & IP reduced the volatility.

Keith,

Sorry to return to your original post with another basic question, but you mention that you draw down your margin loan to supplement the net $45K income from dividends etc. If you're drawing money from the loan for personal use doesn't this mean you can no longer claim the margin loan interest as a tax deduction. Isn't this the same problem people run into with LOCs that they use for both investing and personal use? Am I missing something simple again?

John.
 
Keith,

Sorry to return to your original post with another basic question, but you mention that you draw down your margin loan to supplement the net $45K income from dividends etc. If you're drawing money from the loan for personal use doesn't this mean you can no longer claim the margin loan interest as a tax deduction. Isn't this the same problem people run into with LOCs that they use for both investing and personal use? Am I missing something simple again?
Hi John,

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. Physically it's a simple process, but the ATO/accountants have a slightly more convoluted technical interpretation. As I mentioned I tried some share trading, options & sold IPs. I made profits & I paid tax. I then lent some profits to the trust. When I draw down for personal use, the ATO considers that the trust is paying me back the cash I lent it. And consequently the trust has to borrow more from the margin loan. The trust currently owes me $100Ks. So the whole of the margin loan interest is deductible. I'm glad you're dissecting the whole structure.....

Cheers Keith
 
Hi John,

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. Physically it's a simple process, but the ATO/accountants have a slightly more convoluted technical interpretation. As I mentioned I tried some share trading, options & sold IPs. I made profits & I paid tax. I then lent some profits to the trust. When I draw down for personal use, the ATO considers that the trust is paying me back the cash I lent it. And consequently the trust has to borrow more from the margin loan. The trust currently owes me $100Ks. So the whole of the margin loan interest is deductible. I'm glad you're dissecting the whole structure.....

Cheers Keith

Ah, that's clear now. Thanks. I didn't realise the trust was sitting in the middle there. Very nice.

John.
 
Keith,

First of all, great post, I have printed it out and pinned it on my study wall. Hope you don't have a copyright on it :eek:

LPT's, (Listed Property Trusts) is this what you mean by LPT's:

S&P/ASX 200 Prop Trusts [XPJ]

cheers,

GG
 
First of all, great post, I have printed it out and pinned it on my study wall. Hope you don't have a copyright on it :eek:

LPT's, (Listed Property Trusts) is this what you mean by LPT's:

S&P/ASX 200 Prop Trusts [XPJ]

Hi GG,

My take on LPTs was posted here. The yields mentioned will have changed, since it was posted a while ago. LPTs weren't overvalued back in those days - I believe they are currently expensive.

XPJ is an index - you can't actually buy it. XPJ consists of a few LPTs (mostly WDC, SGP & GPT I think). It's like All Ords or ASX50 index, but for the commercial property sector.

The ASX has published comparative returns over reasonable long periods showing that IP, LPTs & stocks all had v. similar absolute returns.


The (tongue in cheek) thread title was in the same vein as some of the copyrighted books and $$$ courses & CDs out there - everything posted here is free.

Cheers Keith
 
Thanks Mate

I have been thinking of branching into shares as I do not need to put 300k into one investment and can put smaller amounts into shares without tenants, insurance, stamp duty, water rates, council rates and maintaince costs
Inspirational :)
 
Hi Simon,



Finally
If in 2001 anyone had told me I'd be writing this story in 2007 I'd never have believed them. So to all the gunnas out there, I was once one of you, then I bought a really average IP at the asking price....

......and I apologise for the sensationalist title.

Keith,

Thanks for sharing a fantastic story and congratulations on your achievement.

Cheers
Y.C.
 
There is one bit of the interview where its said "never used a LOC" but then it says to draw down equity when possible.

How do you draw down equity without using a LOC?
 
Ok, here is my blonde question of the day - what's OPM??

I read the entire incredible interview (twice - amazing stuff!!), been reading the threads it's posted to....but still haven't seen OPM spelled out .......but then again I am special :D ;) :D

Thanks!

Cheers,
Jen
 
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