Yes I have. But it's about as suitable for university-level economics lecturing (even first year) as Milly Molly Mandy is for university-level English lit!
Is uni 'worth it'
- Thread starter Spectre
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Yes I have. But it's about as suitable for university-level economics lecturing (even first year) as Milly Molly Mandy is for university-level English lit!
I dont have any kids, but my nieces and nephews look to me for advice quite often.
They are only youngish,eldest is 15, and often ask me about life after school and university. I'm the only person in my family that went, this is not to say that we are a bunch of numpties, my oldest brother runs a very profitable business digging holes, my next brother is a senior sales executive for a worldwide company, he started as a sparkie and my sister is a stay at home mum, but was a HR manager, she went the TAFE route. I'm a computer dork.
Anyway, what I always tell them is that life is about choice, and if you do decide to go on and do further study, it gives you more choices / more options, plain and simple. If you decide you want to be a tradie, you can still do it and have a Uni degree, etc...etc...
I'm glad I went and have never looked back since. I enjoyed my time at Uni, studied hard and partied hard, but I did come out with good marks and ended up working at a large worldwide IT firm.
I've had wonderful opportunities for travel and experience and have been to nearly all of Asia, all on someone elses dollar, which has been an amazing experience and it has changed me for the better as a person.
If I had my time over, I probably would have liked to get into merchant banking.......if only for the money
Money also gives you options.........
They are only youngish,eldest is 15, and often ask me about life after school and university. I'm the only person in my family that went, this is not to say that we are a bunch of numpties, my oldest brother runs a very profitable business digging holes, my next brother is a senior sales executive for a worldwide company, he started as a sparkie and my sister is a stay at home mum, but was a HR manager, she went the TAFE route. I'm a computer dork.
Anyway, what I always tell them is that life is about choice, and if you do decide to go on and do further study, it gives you more choices / more options, plain and simple. If you decide you want to be a tradie, you can still do it and have a Uni degree, etc...etc...
I'm glad I went and have never looked back since. I enjoyed my time at Uni, studied hard and partied hard, but I did come out with good marks and ended up working at a large worldwide IT firm.
I've had wonderful opportunities for travel and experience and have been to nearly all of Asia, all on someone elses dollar, which has been an amazing experience and it has changed me for the better as a person.
If I had my time over, I probably would have liked to get into merchant banking.......if only for the money
Money also gives you options.........
Yes I have. But it's about as suitable for university-level economics lecturing (even first year) as Milly Molly Mandy is for university-level English lit!
Disagree.
In the hands of a capable and creative tutor it could be a good starting point for discussion and essay papers.
Much economics is about people's attitudes and behaviour as much as esoteric econometric modelling which has a list of assumptions as long as your arm! Once these have been worked through, all you have left is tosh.
While RMIB (sounds like a university name!) was more about people not countries, what are implications if countries ran themselves like that?
Would they be too debt-averse and not build needed infrastructure or services? But since infrastructure/health/education generally doesn't pay and don't build themselves, should taxes and borrowings be regarded as the price of a civilised society?
Or was Margaret Thatcher right when she said that the country's budget was just like a households?
Of currency at the moment, should recalcitrant children who do their dough on junk be bailed out by mummy and daddy? How about those who greedily lent to those without the ability to repay.
While pure capitalism is about risk and freedom (to fail as well as succeed) is it just too big, and the consequences too grave, to allow banks to fail. Hence the big end of town capitalism is more a protected oligopoly than free competition, but might this be a small price to pay for the alternative of a loss of confidence, and thus trade, investment and jobs - and stuff the moral hazard arguments?
And what does that tell us about the role of government and its institutions; is its job merely to set the rules, or should it also enter the field when the market players pissed it against the wall on overvalued 'assets' or dodgy loans?
Microeconomics was big when it appeared that the macroeconomics was going swimmingly. The game now is different; rather than keeping interest rates up to contain borrowing and inflation, the job now is to restore confidence.
Even free-marketeers are turning to Keynes and mother government for help (maybe a parallel with Roosevelt's New Deal?).
Ultra-capitalists like Turnbull join the populist bandwagon for pension increases that the economonically rational in calmer times would have thought unaffordable, irresponsible and regressive.
Sophisticated economists (eg Gruen) say that the time's right for Rudd's handouts to the masses; doesn't matter if it goes on pokies, plasmas or porno, at least it gets the dollars circulating and for the time being.
Now what do people do with the money? Well it either goes into banks or gets spent (more likely). The former shoring up the banks balance sheets, the latter keeping people in jobs.
So it all boils down to how people think and what they do with their money.
Which is exactly the subject material in RMIB.
So why should this not be taught at uni, or at least form a starting point for reflection and study?
Peter
One of ours wants to be a tradie, or techmechie, but doesnt want to do the apprenticeship, but they are so short on trades that apprentices make more than most adult wages.
Three just want to find a job thats fun and pays the bills, work to live vs live to work.
Three just want to find a job thats fun and pays the bills, work to live vs live to work.
all expect bail out if it doesnt work
GenXYZ disease maybe
Hi Max,
Wasn't quite clear from your post on whether you:
1. Objected to the material itself (as being useless),
or
2. Whether it is so simple it should have been "taught" in say, secondary schools?
Cheers,
The Y-man
Yes I have. But it's about as suitable for university-level economics lecturing (even first year) as Milly Molly Mandy is for university-level English lit!
MMM don't know about that Max my son has read both Rich Dad/Poor Dad and the richest man in Babylon (Both at my urging not Uni) After doing micro economics in the first year of his commerce degree came to me and said these guys believe in faries at the bottom of the garden this has nothing to do with real life its just padding to fill out the course.
I gave him a big hug and said welcome to the real world just play the game and get your degree. Those that can do and the rest go into teaching
Common sense isn't very commonWhen you consider the VaR (Value at Risk) mathematical formula that the egg heads in the banks used to price the CDO's Max I think perhaps the richest man in babylon should be requirred reading for the academics
Tiger,
My ex took 8 years and trying in every Uni in Aust & NZ before she got into vet sciences. Other students were older than you are.
It is hard work but if you want to do it go for it.
I wouldn't be impressed if I was in a uni lecture and was being taught from Rich Dad Poor Dad, I would then be waiting for the lecturer to start trying to sign me up to some MLM scheme.
Richest man in Babylon was a good read, when I read it as a teenager, this kind of thing should be taught at primary and high schools.
Uni is as useful or useless as the student doing it, there is plenty of people who have done well in lots of aspects of their lives and been to uni, also plenty who haven't.
One thing I do know is that plenty of people go to uni and don't work while there- or make any money- but rather are content to be poor students for a while. I think a lot of them think whats the point of getting a low paying job while studying when once they have there degree the will be able to earn a 6 figure income. This is where they let themselves down and don't end up getting the results they want.
Open uni while working when a bit older or part time courses, Tafe etc are an excellent alternative.
Hi there
should just make it clear - the references to Rich Dad Poor Dad and the Richest Man In Babylon - were not required reading or anything - just referred to in the context of a discussion on Micro and Fiscal Economics - or the sub prime mess, the credit crunch and what happens next. Was just interested that they were referring to this stuff - as there is so often criticism of the education system that real life financial nous is not taught.
thanks
should just make it clear - the references to Rich Dad Poor Dad and the Richest Man In Babylon - were not required reading or anything - just referred to in the context of a discussion on Micro and Fiscal Economics - or the sub prime mess, the credit crunch and what happens next. Was just interested that they were referring to this stuff - as there is so often criticism of the education system that real life financial nous is not taught.
thanks
And she would be less worried about the threat of being sued for death or disablement of her patients than a 'human' doctor. I can't work out why it costs me more to take my dog to the vet than my child to the doctor. Vets sure are onto a good thing.
Louise
"Spendeth less than thy earneth" is a sensible financial concept, one that should be taught in primary school. That book is not useless, merely irritating. Kiyosaki on the other hand is downright dangerous. His advice to "acquire good debt" is absurd. Following his advice on the promise that "good debt makes you rich, and bad debt makes you poor" has cost many people more money than they could ever hope to regain in their lifetimes. And there are many more who are yet to discover just how costly that bad advice can be.
This thread reminds me of the old '80s Rodney Dangerfield movie 'Back to School' where he plays Thornton Melon a self made millionaire (drop out) who goes back to Uni to stop his son from dropping out. Here are some choice quotes:
Thornton Melon: Listen, Sherlock. While you were tucked away up here working on your ethics, I was out there busting my hump in the REAL world. And the reason guys like you got a place to teach is 'cause guys like me donate buildings.
And this was my favourite in the movie:
Talking about an assignement to set up a fictional company from start to finish:
Thornton Melon: Oh, you left out a bunch of stuff.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: Oh really? Like what for instance?
Thornton Melon: First of all you're going to have to grease the local politicians for the sudden zoning problems that always come up. Then there's the kickbacks to the carpenters, and if you plan on using any cement in this building I'm sure the teamsters would like to have a little chat with ya, and that'll cost ya. Oh and don't forget a little something for the building inspectors. Then there's long term costs such as waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that business but I assure you it's not the boyscouts.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: That will be quite enough, Mr. Melon! Maybe bribes, kickbacks and Mafia payoffs are how YOU do business! But they are NOT part of the legitimate business world! And they are certainly not part of anything I am doing in this class. Do I make myself clear, Mr. Melon!
Thornton Melon: OK I'm sorry, just trying to help.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: Next we'll have to work out the location of our new factory...
Thornton Melon: How about fantasy land?!
Thornton Melon: Listen, Sherlock. While you were tucked away up here working on your ethics, I was out there busting my hump in the REAL world. And the reason guys like you got a place to teach is 'cause guys like me donate buildings.
And this was my favourite in the movie:
Talking about an assignement to set up a fictional company from start to finish:
Thornton Melon: Oh, you left out a bunch of stuff.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: Oh really? Like what for instance?
Thornton Melon: First of all you're going to have to grease the local politicians for the sudden zoning problems that always come up. Then there's the kickbacks to the carpenters, and if you plan on using any cement in this building I'm sure the teamsters would like to have a little chat with ya, and that'll cost ya. Oh and don't forget a little something for the building inspectors. Then there's long term costs such as waste disposal. I don't know if you're familiar with who runs that business but I assure you it's not the boyscouts.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: That will be quite enough, Mr. Melon! Maybe bribes, kickbacks and Mafia payoffs are how YOU do business! But they are NOT part of the legitimate business world! And they are certainly not part of anything I am doing in this class. Do I make myself clear, Mr. Melon!
Thornton Melon: OK I'm sorry, just trying to help.
Dr. Phillip Barbay: Next we'll have to work out the location of our new factory...
Thornton Melon: How about fantasy land?!
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I've worked for a lot of uni educated bosses and most have been d$ckheads. 30ish, no real ideas of their own, no people managing skills, can't relate to other peoples jobs, unreal expectations etc. I'd much rather work for someone who came 'up through the ranks' and have varied experience.
Having said the above I have respect for those who came up through the ranks and later in life go to uni to get a degree to round themselves out and get some 'cred'. If you do the uni bit first though I don't know anyone who would do it the other way around. There's no denying it - a uni degree will open doors to some jobs and you are likely to get the job over someone who only has experience - even if it's years of experience.
I've had many 'discussions/arguments' with uni people because I disagree with their views (a close friend & my daughter included). They don't seem to think for themselves after a uni degree, just spout what they've been taught and regardless of the degree they all sound the same and have a slight pompousness about them. The thinking seems to be - it/I must be right 'cos it/I was taught it at uni and countless others as well as me all learnt it from learned people who themselves learnt it at uni etc. I'm reminded of the movie Educating Rita where she had a lively, curious mind but wanted to be 'clever' like the people who got a higher education. So she did a degree and ended up spouting the same crap that all the other students were spouting. Michael Caine (her mentor) was very disappointed.
I've impressed on my daughter to use the knowledge the degree has given her but not to swap it for common sense, experience and gut instinct and not to be afraid to go against the grain - 'cos she's already a clever girl! I have found it's people who have stepped off the usual path, tried something different, bucked the system and generally gone out on their own and used their own thinking and natural instincts who have came up with the big discoveries, new inventions and great ideas.
As far as pay/HECS bills etc. I've been an employment consultant and I've always thought the pay to job set up is crazy. Salespeople can earn heaps. They usually have no degrees, but can visit clients, take orders and make sales which make money for the business. The more money they make for the business the more they are valued and paid. People in the health industry however, who heal bodies and minds or save lives get paid crap as do those who take care of our elderly or childminders who care for our most precious possessions - our kids, and these people can't do this type of work WITHOUT degrees or training of some kind. You could say they are service providers instead of money makers, but that's only because their work is hard to measure. I'm sure it's better to get people healed and productive members of society again than leave them as welfare recipients who also drain other resources.
My grandsons recently went through an intensive 9 day swimming programme through the school holidays and one of my grandsons (aged 5) went from being afraid to put his face in the water to jumping in and dog paddling to the steps or side of the pool at the end of the course - fantastic! and his teacher probably gets less than $20.00/hour.
Olly
Having said the above I have respect for those who came up through the ranks and later in life go to uni to get a degree to round themselves out and get some 'cred'. If you do the uni bit first though I don't know anyone who would do it the other way around. There's no denying it - a uni degree will open doors to some jobs and you are likely to get the job over someone who only has experience - even if it's years of experience.
I've had many 'discussions/arguments' with uni people because I disagree with their views (a close friend & my daughter included). They don't seem to think for themselves after a uni degree, just spout what they've been taught and regardless of the degree they all sound the same and have a slight pompousness about them. The thinking seems to be - it/I must be right 'cos it/I was taught it at uni and countless others as well as me all learnt it from learned people who themselves learnt it at uni etc. I'm reminded of the movie Educating Rita where she had a lively, curious mind but wanted to be 'clever' like the people who got a higher education. So she did a degree and ended up spouting the same crap that all the other students were spouting. Michael Caine (her mentor) was very disappointed.
I've impressed on my daughter to use the knowledge the degree has given her but not to swap it for common sense, experience and gut instinct and not to be afraid to go against the grain - 'cos she's already a clever girl! I have found it's people who have stepped off the usual path, tried something different, bucked the system and generally gone out on their own and used their own thinking and natural instincts who have came up with the big discoveries, new inventions and great ideas.
As far as pay/HECS bills etc. I've been an employment consultant and I've always thought the pay to job set up is crazy. Salespeople can earn heaps. They usually have no degrees, but can visit clients, take orders and make sales which make money for the business. The more money they make for the business the more they are valued and paid. People in the health industry however, who heal bodies and minds or save lives get paid crap as do those who take care of our elderly or childminders who care for our most precious possessions - our kids, and these people can't do this type of work WITHOUT degrees or training of some kind. You could say they are service providers instead of money makers, but that's only because their work is hard to measure. I'm sure it's better to get people healed and productive members of society again than leave them as welfare recipients who also drain other resources.
My grandsons recently went through an intensive 9 day swimming programme through the school holidays and one of my grandsons (aged 5) went from being afraid to put his face in the water to jumping in and dog paddling to the steps or side of the pool at the end of the course - fantastic! and his teacher probably gets less than $20.00/hour.
Olly
Fair enough.
Question then - if it is not taught in primary school, nor secondary school, and you are standing in front of a class full of students who have zippo idea (i.e. spendeth more than thy earneth on thy credit card and hope inheritance is enough to cover debt).... do you mention it (as a sort of social crusdade thing at the expense of uni time), or just go on with the text book stuff? Curious to know your thoughts
Cheers,
The Y-man
Hi
Simple answer is, economically, on average, university is worth it. On a personal level it is a question that people can only answer over time.
Here is the 2002 data from OECD regarding relative earnings of tertiary graduates v secondary graduates by country.
The chart is from this presentation
http://www.e-c.edu.hk/reform/Prof Barry McGaw Speech.pdf
Cheers
Shane
Simple answer is, economically, on average, university is worth it. On a personal level it is a question that people can only answer over time.
Here is the 2002 data from OECD regarding relative earnings of tertiary graduates v secondary graduates by country.
The chart is from this presentation
http://www.e-c.edu.hk/reform/Prof Barry McGaw Speech.pdf
Cheers
Shane
Attachments
It depends on your motives whether Uni is worth it.
Uni is worth it if you want to take up a profession that requires a Uni qualification to begin.
Some people ( I know a couple of these) who simply want to use their Uni degree as a status symbol or use it to feel superior to others. Education snobs. They name drop and wear it like a badge. Sadly, it's all wasted on me.
Some people (I know a few of these) use Uni to escape from the real world for most of their adult life; constantly doing a new degree, a new course etc. Professional students basically.
If you want to go to Uni to eventually make money in life, there's no reason to be there to do that.
Uni is worth it if you want to take up a profession that requires a Uni qualification to begin.
Some people ( I know a couple of these) who simply want to use their Uni degree as a status symbol or use it to feel superior to others. Education snobs. They name drop and wear it like a badge. Sadly, it's all wasted on me.
Some people (I know a few of these) use Uni to escape from the real world for most of their adult life; constantly doing a new degree, a new course etc. Professional students basically.
If you want to go to Uni to eventually make money in life, there's no reason to be there to do that.
