Making profit in Commercial...most effective strategy?

Hope I'm not hijacking here, but I have a question re CIPs, or being "creative" with CIPs.

What are your thoughts on buying a house on a major road with a view to renovating for office space. Would this be appealing to professional people (Accountants etc) for lease?

If so, to what extent do you renovate, or more to the point, how to renovate since it would still have 3 bedrooms 1 bathroom and 1 kitchen probably.
How to renovate to make it appealing as office space?

Cheers
 
This is a generalisation, but from my experience - you may need bigger houses to make it work. Accountants, doctors surgeries etc want more than just a small 3 bedroom house they can convert to offices, so with a small house and reno. you'll only be appealing to a one man show.

I've seen it done with a few here at Norwood, but these are all bigger houses, eg. the last one had 8 individual rooms, plus a living area, cellar and a kitchen area. So that's potentially 8 offices, a board room, records space and staff room. The houses that weren't big enough had additions made to the buildings. Remember that you'd probably need one room alone just as a reception/waiting area - in a 3br house, this will take away say 25% of your space before you even create the professional rooms.

For a smaller tenant it may work, but then that will go with a smaller rent and relatively higher risk of a less secure tenant if it's just a one professional person operation. Probably not hugely better than a residential property, and with the less attractive financing options.

My accountant's firm works out of these sorts of premises, but they're a relatively big firm, and the last few years have still been running out of space despite owning two adjoining houses and from memory leasing a third.

You'd also have to comply with local council regulations including changing the zoning which can involve community consultation (ie. the nimby's next door), car parking areas which would likely entail you bitumising (sic?) the entire backyard and driveway(s), widening slipway into said driveway from the road. During this time (the example mentioned above took about 12 months for approvals and reno's) the property will be sapping a lot of extra cash from you without any tenants, and God forbid the council wants to play funny buggers and stalls you along the way (surely council wouldn't do that?! :rolleyes:). Just some other issues to be mindful of.
 
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Here's a working example of the property I mentioned above for those who may be interested (Kim - 65 Edward St, Norwood) - 1910, heritage listed property:

Went to auction in Dec '07. Really only one bidder on the day who finished his bidding then after a bit of to and fro with the elderly owners kids and grandkids inside (they were all very interested!) he came back out, upped his bid by another $20k and got the place for $1.12M. It's a perfect location for an office conversion -240m2 building area sitting on 974m2 land in the heart of Norwood, sandwiched in between already converted office houses and retail properties and car parks. I think the old bloke was probably sad to see it go, I saw him in the backyard up until the end incl. auction week tending to his veggie patches. Got the feeling the family were eager to move him out, but not really my place to say.

Anyway, $1.12M purchase + say $40k fees or so. They didn't have to do much structural work inside - it needed face lift in each of the rooms, probably a new kitchen area, plus the biggest job would have been indoor plumbing as there was no indoor toilet (from memory there was a trench dug along the driveway at one point). Then outside they had to bitumenise the driveway, then the entire backyard (so about 500m2 total) plus add in traffic islands, and widen the front yard slipway and landscape. By my rough guesstimate say $200k all up (but I don't know how much bitumen costs)?

They also had to get approval from council to change use and zoning, there was a community consultation process but I didn't follow that - I would assume it wasn't too much fuss since both sides of the property were already commercial. Don't know the costs that would have been involved with this.

So all up we're probably looking around: $1.12M + $40k fees + $200k reno. = $1.36M all up.

The above work didn't start for about 6 months from memory and the approvals even if a formality would have taken a while. He started advertising it for lease at the end of 08 at $82kpa, 11 months after he bought it. Dropped the asking price to $72kpa in August '09 and finally got a tenant in November '09. So assuming he got his $72k asking + say $7k outgoings (?), he's on a yield of around 5.8% on his costs.

Similar property (though only 130m2 building area and 850m2 land) two doors down sold in Feb '08 for $1.3M, owner/occupier moved out (not sure if he retired or moved offices) and new owner advertised for $50kpa + outgoings - also vacant for about 10 months. So assuming he got his $50kpa + say $5k outgoings (?) for $55k = yield of 4.23%.

Applying same yield to the original example above, his value would have been about $1.86M give or take, and prices have continued to rise in Norwood since. As you can see, also not the easiest proposition to find tenants for these types of properties despite them being in absolute prime position with on site parking etc.
 
So all up we're probably looking around: $1.12M + $40k fees + $200k reno. = $1.36M all up.

The above work didn't start for about 6 months from memory and the approvals even if a formality would have taken a while. He started advertising it for lease at the end of 08 at $82kpa, 11 months after he bought it. Dropped the asking price to $72kpa in August '09 and finally got a tenant in November '09. So assuming he got his $72k asking + say $7k outgoings (?), he's on a yield of around 5.8% on his costs.


...so where is the valid business model in all of that Steve ??


After all of that work and headache with councils etc getting it all up and running, zero income whilst he does all that work, and then at the end of the day he nett's 5.8% ?? ....and if you don't put in the hard yards then you can look forward to buying something off the rack and you get 4.23% nett ??


What is the business model here ?? Wait for prices to double and yields drop to either 2.1 or 2.9%, assuming Tenants won't budge much, or creep up at 5% p.a.


If the Tenant's signed a Lease for say 5 years, with in-built 5%p.a. increases, then they would go from 5.8 * 1.05^5 = 7.4% at the end of the Lease. If it's a fantastic area, and everyone wants in and the property doubles in value over that 5 year period, then the new chump coming in will be getting 3.7% nett. She's heading south.


For all that work and grief and lack of cashflow at the start, I cannot see how the Landlord turns a buck ?? Maybe I need better goggles on.
 
Don't think so Dazz, just putting the deal out there as an example I know of house to office conversion, don't think it was a particularly good one, but then again Norwood is a strange beast, so probably not a typical example. Yields are always very low. Generally speaking, the smaller commercial deals you'll be underwater for a few years at least. Having said that, it does highlight that a house coversion may not be as straight forward and easy as some think - granted the figures may differ, but a lot of the same issues may pop up.

In Norwood you need to start getting to the deeper end of the pool to make money from the get go. The deal I mentioned above at around $9M on completion, they're making good yield and CG from the get go.

- The old fellas who bought the building and land that now has Norwood Place sitting on it for $10M in 2000 are making a nice yield and sitting on huge CG now that they've developed.
- Woolies (ALH) who bought the pub and land on the corner will be making a pretty penny (though for them the realestate is a by product of their liquor/gambling business).
- The old fella who bought the land and has now built the Hoyts complex on it would be seeing a very nice yield and CG (one of the old guys like my LL who will leave the shops sitting empty rather than drop the rents).

On the other hand, there's also risks at this end. Don't think Coles have done particularly well from their purchase. Bought the mall I'm near to kick Woolies out and install their own supermarket. $13M + from memory $8M development. They've been trying to sell on and off for years without any takers, don't know how much they're after though.
 
For all that work and grief and lack of cashflow at the start, I cannot see how the Landlord turns a buck ?? Maybe I need better goggles on.

Sure the yield might be low at present but he has purchased a decent chunk of prime land (just so happens that the floor area is small at present). Later down the track if they put a purpose built building on there he should get much better yields or extend the existing dwelling. $1300/sqm for land in Norwood is reasonable I would have thought.

You don't value the unoccupied the land Dazz?

Interesting insights you're producing Steve, I work just near Prospect Rd and I have relatives in Norwood so most of your examples I find interesting. Might have to have a look down this path at some stage......

Gools
 
Of course I value the land underneath....but it all comes back to numbers, and if they work.


If you can get away with creaming a great yield off the infrastructure that is situated on the land to start with, surely that is better than having to pour big mobs of money and time to scrap the old stuff and put up something new and decent.


All comes back to the numbers. General principles don't count for squat, in my experience.


Don't get me wrong Steve, I'm not having a go at you, or Norwood - wherever that is, I wouldn't know it if it jumped up and bit me on the bum. I'm solely looking at the numbers you have generously presented for further discussion re: the box on dirt you have described.
 
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