Money Is The Root Of All Joy

[Steve Navra]

Hi All,

This is one of the greatest pieces I have ever read.

http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm

The moral justification for all our efforts to build up our personal wealth.

Regards,

Steve

 

[asy]

wow.

simply that...

wow.

asy

PS, I need to read it again and disseminate it...

 

[Sim]

Interesting read. I had to read it very carefully several times to measure what he was saying, and in general I agree with his arguments.

Though I do think he has missed the point a little about the quote "the love of money is the root of all evil". There are several types of love - the english language is rather lacking when it comes to labelling the nuances of a concept.

The author talks about love of money as the act of getting to know it, to become intimate with its true nature and to understand it, and therefor to make money work for you as best you can. I understand this, and agree that this is an important task.

Ignorance about how money actually works is one things that keeps people as slaves to their own misfortune. People's misconceptions about money lead them to believe the wrong things about the power and purpose of money - to the point where money seems to control them.

However, I believe that the original intention of the quote which talks about the love of money - actually refers to a concept more closely related to lust - something more akin to temptation rather than a relationship built on understanding and commitment.

This is one of the most misquoted verses from the Bible - 1 Timothy 6:10 says (in the New International Version)

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs

If you want a little more context - people may look at the previous verse, 1 Timothy 6:9 which says

People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction

So, when taken together, these two verses seem to be damning of those people who "want to get rich" and have developed a "love of money".

But that's not the point at all. The point is about people who have lost their faith - not about money. As the second part of verse 10 says - "Some people... have wandered from the faith".

Now, this is where many people turn off and say "well that's fine - I'm not a Christian, this doesn't apply to me". But it is relevant to everyone - if you like, let us rewrite that second sentence from verse 10.

"Some people... have lost sight of what is important in life and have caused themselves many griefs in their pursuit of what they incorrectly believe to be important".

To back this up, let's go even futher back in the chapter... Starting from 1 Timothy 6:6

6 But godliness with contentment is great gain. 7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.

So the whole section is about focus. It is not so much about how evil money or the love of it is - but rather how important it is to focus on what is important in life - since we cannot take our material wealth with us !

So no matter how you like your religion cooked, these verses should be something that you take to heart, in whatever form works for you. Money is nothing more than a tool - an instrument of trade. Do not fall in love with it, for it cannot love you back. Understand it, use it, build great things and live great lives with it. But keep it in perspective. Look at what is important in your life, and seek balance.

At the end of your life, will you be more satisfied with the dollars you have collected, or with the lives that you have touched and that have in turn touched you ?

(PS. I strongly disagree with the subject line "Money is the root of all joy".)

 

[geoffw]

Sim,

A very interesting post, and a good slant on a familiar quotation.

The wording of another version is interesting

Warn those who are rich in this world’s goods that they are not to look down on other people… tell them … to be generous and willing to share- this is the only way that they can save up a good capital sum for the future if they want to be sure of the only life that is real

(Jerusalem version)

Sorry, not a theological debate.

But is shows something, I think, of what you are saying.

I think there’s two mistakes people make along this path.

One is to focus on the goal, at the expense of the path- and then not to be able to enjoy achieving that goal. I’ve seen people (not that many, I admit) who have achieved financial independence- and then go back to work- for whatever reasons.I see myself in that category- I enjoy my work, I would just like to be able to have the choice and flexibility of not having to depend on it. Like Steve said in another thread,

What is your ultimate goal; and will it make you happy?

On the other hand, people can sacrifice everything along the path, and totally miss out on the important things along the way. I’ve been there- working 65 hours pw at one stage cost a lot, despite the dollars it earned.

I think this thread is rapidly taking a direction away from what Steve intended- I haven’t even digested his quoted articleyet.

 

[Steve Navra]

Originally posted by Sim

(PS. I strongly disagree with the subject line "Money is the root of all joy".)

Hi Sim,

I accept and agree with your sentiment regarding the above phrase.

Just to add however that I use the phrase "Money is the root of all joy" as the antithesis of "Money is the root of all evil".

Both are incorrect and quoted out of context.

The money as such is not the root of all joy, rather it is what use the money is put to, that creates the joy.

Joy manifests itself in different ways for many people:

Examples:

Providing a home, food, education for your family.

Charity, as in being able to help others.

Affordability to be able to educate others. (Education seldom pays unless you run very costly seminars )

Would love to take the debate further, but it’s late and I'm ZZZZZZZZ

Sincerely,

Steve

 

[Jamie]

Originally posted by Sim
Interesting read. I had to read it very carefully several times to measure what he was saying, and in general I agree with his arguments.

Ignorance about how money actually works is one things that keeps people as slaves to their own misfortune. People's misconceptions about money lead them to believe the wrong things about the power and purpose of money - to the point where money seems to control them.



**Im in complete agreement (or agreeance, depending on the familiarity of one of us with the other). Ignorance about anything is usually the primary factor in preventing people from reaching their goals. .**


However, I believe that the original intention of the quote which talks about the love of money - actually refers to a concept more closely related to lust - something more akin to temptation rather than a relationship built on understanding and commitment.


**Again, you have my support.**


So, when taken together, these two verses seem to be damning of those people who "want to get rich" and have developed a "love of money".

But that's not the point at all. The point is about people who have lost their faith - not about money. As the second part of verse 10 says - "Some people... have wandered from the faith".



**Once again, on the money.**



Now, this is where many people turn off and say "well that's fine - I'm not a Christian, this doesn't apply to me". But it is relevant to everyone - if you like, let us rewrite that second sentence from verse 10.



**Here I disagree... and wish to comment without this argument turning to theology...

Any close examination of the bible is subject to the same pre-dispositions, prejudices and biases as that of any historical text.
I think it is misleading to use the actual text of the bible to entice people toward your way of thinking, then tell them that words and phrases are interchangeable. This is of course after taking the huge first step that any modern bible is both accurate and relevant.

Firstly, for those that believe in the sanctity of the bible, I think its message may be somewhat diluted by convenient "rewriting".

I also disagree that it is relevant to everyone... for an avowed atheist ( and even an agnostic), the implication that the bible has something for them beyond some intangible ( and chronologically unprovable) moral is somewhat more than they can (and should) be force fed

PS: This is not the time and place for theological meanderings... I am merely responding to a previous post.**


"Some people... have lost sight of what is important in life and have caused themselves many griefs in their pursuit of what they incorrectly believe to be important".


**Again, I agree.

I also agree with Steves original post, and the general tenets of the article he linked.

In the true Christian manner ( for those who believe), they who accrue the most in tangible assets (while not at the expense of others) are in the best position to assist those who are less fortunate.**

Best wishes,

Jamie

Mu personal opinion is that these biblical quandaries are the last place in which to establish objective investing fundamentals.

PS THIS POST WAS A GENERAL RESPONSE TO A PARTICULAR POST. PLEASE DO NOT LINK ANY OPINIONS HEREIN TO EITHER THE MODERATORS OR ADMINISTRATOR OF THIS FORUM, OR TO ANY PARTICULAR RELIGIOUS PERSUASION OR BELIEF.

 

[Sim]

Jamie - my introduction of the theological aspects into the discussion were mainly just to comment on the original source of the quote that began the whole article in question.

I was not attempting to assert anything about the Bible's authority or accuracy - only that it is the source of the debate, and as such to be consistent, we must look at the context of the quote.

I was mainly interested in dispelling some of the connotations that people take from the quote since it is so frequently misquoted. I think my analysis finished up agreeing with the original article anyway, as I thought I had lent more weight to his argument that money is not evil nor is the love of money (by the authors definition) evil either.

My attempt to change the wording was an attempt to take the original text and paraphrase it and as such de-theologise it to a certain degree with my own interpretation (and it is nothing more than interpretation !).

Mu personal opinion is that these biblical quandaries are the last place in which to establish objective investing fundamentals

My personal opinion totally disagrees with you ! It is because of quotes such as the one in question that people automatically assume that the bible is against money and against investing and such. However, there are many many references to money - both good and bad in the Bible, and some very good sections on the wisdom of investing. Not suggesting that you necessarily need to read it as part of your investing library (no harm in doing so though, if you want to) - I'm more interested in trying to adjust some of the assumptions people make about it which I think are incorrect.

I also take issue (in the best possible way !) about your dismissal of the Bible for aethiests and agnostics. If you like, simply treat it as another book ! Just because it is a religious text, does not mean that it is not simply words written by men. It's not as if it magically appeared written in stone or anything

My point is that even if you disagree with the source and the supposed holiness of the book - it is still a book, and could well be read as such - you never know what you may learn ! A parallel if I may... there have been many discussions on the writings of Robert Kiyosaki and how inappropriate his methods are for various reasons. There have also been suggestions that his books are based on fiction and hold little actual truth in them.

Yet, many people also believe that SOME of the concepts discussed in Rich Dad Poor Dad (RDPD) and other books still have merit, and have been credited with leading many to an understanding and a motivation that they can actually do something about their position in life - and have lead them to start investing.

So I think we can draw a parallel between RDPD and the Bible (please - I'm not suggesting that RDPD is Christ or is holy - keep it in context ). My point is that many people choose not to believe the claims about the source of the bible - as many people choose not to believe the claims about the souce of Kiyosaki's writing. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't read either books - even if you don't believe in it. You may still learn something !

Read a book, measure it against your own standards, dismiss anything you disagree with and keep that which you find valuable.

I had several friends in uni of differing religious persuasions (including an atheist AND an agnostic !!), and we spent many hours on theological debates (as one does in uni). Several of the guys read the Bible just for material they could use in debates - they chose not to believe it, but read it anyway. I think they had also read the Koran and several other competing religious texts. They got something out of it - knowledge and understanding of someone elses point of view, which they could then use to further their own. No harm in that.

So I am not trying to encourage you to read the Bible (heck, it's a long book and mostly not related to property investing... but there was a good section on adding value... hint... you'd be dumb to build your house on sand in a flood zone)... just trying to encourage you not to dismiss it out of hand because of what it is used for.

It's been good discussing this with you Jamie !

 

[Sim]

Originally posted by Steve Navra
I accept and agree with your sentiment regarding the above phrase.

Thanks Steve - I was assuming that you had approached it in the way you described - just thought I needed to state my position on the matter in case anyone took it too literally ! Well explained.

 

[sbe]

Excellent discussion guys !

Personally, I take the bibles point of view - Money is not the root of evil, only love (ie.lust) of it. Money is a tool - it is neither good nor bad - the holder, persuit and use determines that.....

For some light reading, read the part about the Parable of the Talents. I don't like the retirement plan of the guy who did nothing......Mathew 25:14


Cheerio.

Simon.

 

[Mr. Fabulous]

Sim',
Youir post regarding reading the Bible is well taken. As an avowed atheist, when I find something worthwhile in there. I'll hold onto it! Hey, it's a joke okay guys, don't get upset. No seriously, I look into religious stuff sometimes (I have extensively Buddhist stuff, particularly stuff by the Dalai Lama) and keep what I like.
However, when it comes to Christianity, I find not much at all. Why? Cause the Bible contradicts itself so much that for me, it holds very little merit. Now, don't interpret this the wrong way, I have no problem with Christians, my family is very religious, just the book.
I look at the way that Christian leaders act and think, and think myself 'Geez, these guys don't seem to practice what they preach too much'. When compared to someone like The Dalai Lama, someone like the Pope really doesn't stand up morally. But hey, that's just my opinion. If ya walk the talk, then good luck to ya. You have all my support. Just don't listen to the guys at the top, they're corrupt as hell!

Mark
'no hat, some cattle'

 

[geoffw]

Mark,

The thread so far has been about money, and a particular passage out of the bible.

Taking the topic into religion is something I was very careful to avoid, as was Sim.

I feel that personal comments about religion, not matter what viewpoint, belong in other forums. In particular, the denigrating of people who practice a particular religion could be regarded as bad forum etiquette (at minimum).

 

[Jamie]

Hehehe... Somewhere in there Im agreeing with you Sim'...

I think when it comes to the bible, there should be a warning label that says "Misinterpretation, rather than money, is the root of all evil"

I also take issue (in the best possible way !) about your dismissal of the Bible for aethiests and agnostics. If you like, simply treat it as another book ! Just because it is a religious text, does not mean that it is not simply words written by men. It's not as if it magically appeared written in stone or anything

Agreed. My point was that for atheists the book has somewhat less relevance than for those who believe. I also believe its probably the second best work of fiction I have ever read - just after Niccolo Machiavelli's "The Prince" Ive read the bible many times (13 years at a Catholic school as well ) and believe that, as a work of fiction, it is almost unparalleled. The problem is that, if one were to accept its veracity as a religious tome, then one must accept it in its entirety. It seems to have become too convenient these days to pick and choose which parts of the bible one wants to adhere to while disregarding others that dont suit one's purpose.

I was not attempting to assert anything about the Bible's authority or accuracy - only that it is the source of the debate, and as such to be consistent, we must look at the context of the quote.

I think this seems to be the part where we diverge. I personally think that the less accurate a text is, the less effective it is in persuading people of its merits. You use the example of RDPD, and I thinks its a great example - for many people, Robert K was the catalyst for a change in investment mentality. But most people who read the book dont take the time to question most of his statements or poke holes in his argument (as we are prone to do ) Once you look a little deeper into it, you find that Robert K leaves more questions unanswered than he does resolved (I mean, honestly, what sophisticated investor can have his net worth halve overnight )

Many people dont care that the Rich Dad may never have existed, and may have been figurative rather than literal. I do. I think an argument tends to lose credibilty if it turns out there was never any actual basis for it in the first place. By all means, print almost any book and I will have a read... but if you want to use analogies and allegories, be honest that thats what you are really doing.

I had several friends in uni of differing religious persuasions (including an atheist AND an agnostic !!), and we spent many hours on theological debates (as one does in uni).

Hehehe.. guilty as well. I honestly think I spent more time in the Union.Bar than I did in class... (anyone for a game of Euchre? )

So I am not trying to encourage you to read the Bible (heck, it's a long book and mostly not related to property investing... but there was a good section on adding value... hint... you'd be dumb to build your house on sand in a flood zone)... just trying to encourage you not to dismiss it out of hand because of what it is used for.

Would never dismiss anything out of hand... believe me, years of thought and study have gone into this viewpoint

I also agree that, in general, people misconstrue the bible's perspective on money. As I mentioned ealrier, there are plenty of places in the bible where it is implied that wealth is a noble achievement if it is used to empower the lives of others. Even I cant argue with that one

It's been good discussing this with you Jamie !

My pleasure Sim'

Edited after I read geoffws post above: Please remember these are my own opinions, and I absolutely respect and defend the opinions and beliefs of other in this thread and on the forum in general. I tried to bring this topic back to the original question, and some issues that were raised by other poster.

 

[Sim]

Originally posted by Jamie
I think when it comes to the bible, there should be a warning label that says "Misinterpretation, rather than money, is the root of all evil"

Amen to that !

The biggest issue there of course is that interpretation is mostly subjective, and so many people get out of it something different to what you or I might.

There are even classifications of people based on how they take the information from the Bible... literalists, classicalists, modernists, interperatists, Catholics (sorry, couldn't resist )

But let's get back to the original article... do you think the author is correct in his analysis of the nature of money and our relationship with it ? What about the correlation between money and slavery ? The author talks about money as this mechanism for creating freedom - yet at the same time do we not also see people becoming slaves to this new master - money (or more the point, credit) ?

 

[Jamie]

Originally posted by Sim
Amen to that !

But let's get back to the original article... do you think the author is correct in his analysis of the nature of money and our relationship with it ? What about the correlation between money and slavery ? The author talks about money as this mechanism for creating freedom - yet at the same time do we not also see people becoming slaves to this new master - money (or more the point, credit) ?

I agree with Steve - I think it would be one of the best articles I have ever read... not just about money, but about the way in which money allows us to interact with each other.

I agree that money can be both a means of freedom, and a mechanism of enslavement. The resolution of this paradox relies solely on the level of financial literacy and education that each person possesses. The adage that "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" seems relevant here - a little money (or a lot ) can be a dangerous thing if one is not equipped to deal with the by-products of possessing this money. This is one reason why so many people are in such dire financial situations - not because they lack money per se, but because they seem to lack an understanding of the basic mechanisms of how money works. This ignorance stems from the fact that the majority of people use money on a daily basis without ever attempting to educate themselves financially.

True, money can both free us and enslave us - what inevitably happens is directly proportionate to the level to which one is prepared to educate him/herself.

Hehehe - back on topic!

Jamie

 

[Sim]

Nicely said Jamie. But now that we're back on topic we will probably agree on everything - which is never as much fun

 

[always_learning]

I have a spoken audio file (5MB) of the part of the text, for those who are interested and have a broadband connection I can email it to you. Heavy duty hyperbole stuff. But it forms the core the novel Alas Shrugged, an interesting read, borrow it from your library and read it rather than watching TV or crusing the net.

IMO, in the enlightened 21st century we cannot discrimate against race, color, sex, sexuality, disabilties etc, etc, there is only one thing that allows us to be very discriminatory; money. Better doctors, better quality foods, better living environments all available by folks with money, money lets us live better longer lives and whilst those with less money in realtive terms have corespondingly shorter and worse quality lives. In 300 years I would suggest that history will record our present day capitalistic system as discriminatory. During the Irish potato famine, I understand the English failed to release food simply becuase the English moralized that the Irish were just being lazy and handing out food would only encourage them. (A million dead here, a million dead there, pretty soon we are talking about a lot of dead people!)

Since we live in a Capitalist society ... we should behavior as moral capitalists and not as wage-slaves.

 

[redwing]

Hi All,

This is one of the greatest pieces I have ever read.

http://www.working-minds.com/money.htm

The moral justification for all our efforts to build up our personal wealth.

Regards,

Steve

Wealth creation a moral duty

(It is a) misunderstanding is that since business depends on profit, and profit depends on self-interest, morality is the enemy, and not the friend, of business.

This mistakes both the moral nature of self-interest and the moral nature of profit. The choice between profit and service is a false one.

All of us, including those in the public sector, work for a profit to provide for ourselves and our families. In doing so we contribute to our society by paying taxes, and by providing our communities with services and products. And we relieve the state from the burden of our care. There is everything moral in that exchange.

In addition, it is clear that the mere redistribution of existing wealth is no long-term answer to the poverty that still besets the three billion people, almost half the world, who live on less than $2.50 a day.

As the Pope said in his recent New Year message

(2007)

on the importance of economic development in creating peace, “The creation of wealth is an inescapable moral duty”. So a wrong response to the credit crunch is to decry business in general, or finance in particular.

 

[Aaron Sice]

cool thread.

 

[VYBerlinaV8]

Some really interesting stuff here.

The bible stuff is, I think, incredibly helpful, because it is there for us to think about, and then act on. Apparent inconsistencies are, I think, a clue that we need to dig deeper and think harder.

Loving money for what it is is a good way to miss the point of life completely. Life for me is about relationships. The question for me is 'does having money help or hinder me in the journey'? For some people, having money is very destructive, for others very constructive.

Look at the charity work funded by Bill Gates and Warren Buffet - some amazing stuff there. I doubt very much whether people who 'loved money' would be able to give away that amount of it.

The constant battle for people like ourselves is to resist the temptation to gather money for its own sake. If I own something that I don't feel I can do without, I don't own it - it owns me.

 

[TheShuffler]

Yep - life as a whole is the journey so you better enjoy it...cause you sure as hell don't want to get to the destination!