oil price caused recession

[Gatoblanco]

I have been upset about petrol pollution for many years.
Cities are fun but they are really unhealthy.
I just came to BNE from Cairns. I really noticed how bad the air is. It is a real shame. But no really effective public transport initiatives are put in place.
There have been years of warning so for those who own cars and grizzle I have no sympathy. People should take public transport more.
I may never buy a car. I have got by the last 10yrs without one. (It is hard hunting for properties without a car but I did it).

 

[HiEquity]

Theres only 2 problems with hydrogen. 1. producing it. 2. storing it.

No technical problems there - it's just about the cost implications. My point was that it's always about the cost. Discussions about the viability of any energy source have to be based on the cost differentials involved rather than technical considerations - these two get mixed up all the time. For example we CAN power the whole of Australia with existing solar energy and storage technologies but at what price? How does that compare with alternatives? Who pays???

As an example take nuclear, no nuclear power station has ever been built without a government financial guarantee sitting behind it - says it all IMO. Nobody knows what the "true" commercial cost for a private investor actually is - the energy source may be cheap (but getting more expensive!) but so is wind / solar (no fuel price risk there!) - it's all about the cost to build it and the return you would want on that money, given the risk. It is the risk side of nuclear which has always required the govt financial backing, which is these days pretty unique in the power industry...

On oil, there are alternatives but the price of oil is still so cheap that they just can't be rolled out. Just like in the electricity sector, the cheapest and best alternative is to increase the efficiency of its use and reduce demand (seen the fuel efficiency of a Citroen C3? 4.4L/100km, no batteries required and $23,990 - who cares what the price of oil is if you're only using that much?). It is interesting to see the demand elasticity of oil at these prices... the alternatives will only come out of their boxes at the right price!

 

[Gatoblanco]

People are prepared to pay a lot to drive

It is interesting to see the demand elasticity of oil at these prices... the alternatives will only come out of their boxes at the right price!

Thats what I have observed over the years. Problem is things will get very polluted (and already they are too polluted) before the alternatives become "economical".

 

[boomtown]

No technical problems there - it's just about the cost implications.

Uh no. Hydrogen has massive technical problems. You will remember from high school chemistry that Hydrogen is the first element on the periodic table.

That means its very very small molecule. Try to store it under pressure in a 3 inch steel tank and will just migrate out though the walls. It also takes massive amounts of input energy to generate with current technology.

With current technology we cannot generate hydrogen efficiently and we cannot store it without it all leaking out by the next week.

 

[Token Funder]

Agree on the moratorium - they are touching some sensitive stuff. If you're going to build nuclear why wouldn't you just make hydrogen from the power? Apart from it being too expensive of course...

.,,,and inefficient..given current techniques, it takes more energy to extract hydrogen than it delivers...

 

[HiEquity]

Uh no. Hydrogen has massive technical problems. With current technology we cannot generate hydrogen efficiently and we cannot store it without it all leaking out by the next week.

There are alternatives to storage as "pure" hydrogen. And electrolysis is a relatively efficient method of turning electricity into hydrogen - the reverse process is usually the problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

But that is not the point... again we have commercial problems masquearading as technical problems. This is a link for info on a 100% renewable wind / hydrogen power system that has been working to supply houses for a number of years...

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydro_to_extend.html

It can all be done technically and is being done on a small scale - the only problem is that the cost is horrendous! I'm the last person to advocate hydrogen as a solution to anything but only because of the cost... just trying to reframe the debate so there is less focus on "technical" problems with each technology and more focus on the $$$$$ (show me the money!). It's only when someone can make money out of it that it will actually get built!

Hopefully, for example, that may help stop people thinking solar roof top PV is such a great idea for the planet. Even with a MASSIVE subsidy the likes of which other technologies can only dream about, it still isn't a profitable way to produce power. Why would you use PV if you can use wind at 1/6 the cost? We have to roll out the cheapest options first...

 

[boomtown]

There are alternatives to storage as "pure" hydrogen.

All of those "alternatives" listed on wikipedia are all experimental technologies. Its not actually an alternative until someone can actually make it work.

But that is not the point... again we have commercial problems masquearading as technical problems.

Call it what you will - if its not economically feasible with current technology you can call it an economic problem or you can call it a technical problem. Point being - its a problem and hydrogen is a dog (at least for now).

Wind, hot rocks, tidal and non-photovoltaic solar show much more promise.

 

[pendo]

And this in from Justin Litle from Taipan Publishing

Greenspan may have had a point, but he’s still a jerk. Greenie put forth the following in late 2007: “I am saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil.”

If he had said the exact same thing a few years earlier -- when the weight of his words could have made a difference -- it might have counted as a courageous stand. Waiting until 2007, however, was like voicing safety concerns for the Hindenburg after it blew up.

The phrase is popping up again on news that “big oil” is heading back to Iraq. Exxon, Shell, Total and BP are all in the final stages of negotiation with the Iraqi government, 36 years after having been kicked out by Saddam Hussein.

What might this mean? Well, on the one hand, Iraq has the second-largest endowment of proven oil reserves in the world. On the other hand, it’s a bit of a hot spot. Stay tuned...

Roll on the easy cheap oil. Just watch out for the bullets flying.

 

[Norwester]

TC,

I would have thought the gas network was like the electricity network. A problem in one spot could be quickly solved by adding to the grid somewhere else. Obviously not.

Not exactly........but sort of.

It's all about supply and demand, and who pays what for what. Some mines have been able to secure additional supplies but at some pretty horrendous costs. Not quite sure how Mr Average would feel about paying ten times as much for his domestic gas though........

At least over here they haven't had to resort to turning off domestic users at the meter like they did in Victoria when Longford blew just over ten years ago........then again if it keeps going they just might. Think it would be political suicide for the Carpenter goverment though.

Funny how many millions have been thrown at the terrorist threat over the years when all they would have to do is look at the map above and knock out the key installations.........ssshhh!!

ciao

Nor

 

[ARF]

Hydrogen as a solution for cars doesn't work effectively, either. BMW tried it with the Hydrogen 7 concept. Apart from the fact that a 6.0L V12 can only make 190kW of power with hydrogen (direct injection similar to nitrous oxide), the hydrogen fuel is stored in a large, bi-layered and highly insulated tank as liquid rather than as compressed gas. Apparently it gives more energy-density than a comparable gas at 700bar

The hydrogen tank’s insulation is under high vacuum in order to keep heat transfer to the hydrogen down. When not using fuel, the tank starts to warm and the hydrogen starts to vaporise. Once the tank’s internal pressure reaches 80-ish psi, at roughly 17 hours of not being used, the tank vents the building pressure. Over 10-12 days, it will completely lose the contents of the tank because of this.

Sorry, got a bit of my Engineering streak involved, but you can see the problems.

 

[pendo]

With crude oil reaching $140 a barrel and petrol reaching $1.70 a litre in Sydney the world is facing an oil crisis.

But what would you say if I told you that there is a way of making renewable petroleum from genetically altered bacteria. The Bugs feed on agricultural waste such as woodchips and then excrete a substance similar to crude oil.

A company in California called LS9 has been experimenting with these bugs and claims to be very close to putting the first renewable petroleum into a car.

Today on the 702 Drive show Richard Glover spoke to Greg Pal from LS9.

http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2008/06/24/2284315.htm?site=sydney

 

[boomtown]

I would say how do you do it in sufficient volume to make it economically viable. Its hard to grow bacteria in large volumes without their own waste products killing them off.

 

[akhanna18]

yes rising oil prices have kicked up the fears of global recession . the markets will remain subdued for next year or so.