Potential negative gearing changes

Quarantining rental losses would certainly raise barriers to entry for small-time investors and to some extent favour institutional investors. Also, since effective tax on rental property would be somewhat higher, it is bound at some point result in somewhat higher rents.

Some are touting this (specifically the move towards institutional investors) as a good thing because it would tend to improve security of tenure for those renting. Not sure I totally agree, but they have a point.

Hi Morbius, sorry for the delayed response. This comment is puzzling me that more institutional investment in rental property would improve security of tenure. It is not borne out in my experience.

I have rental properties for over 25 years now in Melbourne, Brisbane and
ACT. Only one tenant had the lease terminated due to unrealistic demand made on the landlord to address every thing that is maybe not just right. Another lease was terminated over inability to pay the rent. Yet many others have stayed in the rental property for many years with average duration of aboutr 4 years.

I do not think it is to the advantage of a landlord to terminate a lease without good reasons. An unhappy tenant over an unexpected termination of lease can cause mischief, damage and theft. There is also changeover cost to the landlord, eg advertisement.

If the institution is the landlord how would it behave differently? Perhaps, it may handle interactions with tenants more coldly, with more professionalism and terminate a lease quicker if the tenant is shown to be a trouble maker?
 
Hi Morbius, sorry for the delayed response. This comment is puzzling me that more institutional investment in rental property would improve security of tenure. It is not borne out in my experience.

I have rental properties for over 25 years now in Melbourne, Brisbane and
ACT. Only one tenant had the lease terminated due to unrealistic demand made on the landlord to address every thing that is maybe not just right. Another lease was terminated over inability to pay the rent. Yet many others have stayed in the rental property for many years with average duration of aboutr 4 years.

I do not think it is to the advantage of a landlord to terminate a lease without good reasons. An unhappy tenant over an unexpected termination of lease can cause mischief, damage and theft. There is also changeover cost to the landlord, eg advertisement.

If the institution is the landlord how would it behave differently? Perhaps, it may handle interactions with tenants more coldly, with more professionalism and terminate a lease quicker if the tenant is shown to be a trouble maker?

I'm not going to go over the arguments made in the affordable housing report, since (a) you can read them for yourself and (b) I don't necessarily agree with them anyhow.

If it is in fact the case I would see the factors promoting increased security of tenure in an environment where portfolios were large to be:

a) More buy and hold landlords means less turnover of properties and you are less likely to be turned out because the new owner wants to do something different with the property like live in it themselves. (I would think that LL wanting vacant possession before/after a sale would be by far the biggest cause of tenants having to move involuntarily).

b) Governments would no doubt be more inclined to legislate tenants more tenure rights if the pool of affected owners were smaller and LLs were more like faceless corporations.
 
I'm not going to go over the arguments made in the affordable housing report, since (a) you can read them for yourself and (b) I don't necessarily agree with them anyhow.

If it is in fact the case I would see the factors promoting increased security of tenure in an environment where portfolios were large to be:

a) More buy and hold landlords means less turnover of properties and you are less likely to be turned out because the new owner wants to do something different with the property like live in it themselves. (I would think that LL wanting vacant possession before/after a sale would be by far the biggest cause of tenants having to move involuntarily).

b) Governments would no doubt be more inclined to legislate tenants more tenure rights if the pool of affected owners were smaller and LLs were more like faceless corporations.


I agree with both conclusions plus the environment will be higher rent as faceless corporation will be chasing target ROI, etc. It must be worthwhile for corporations to operate in this space and governments will be moderated by this consideration.
 
I agree with both conclusions plus the environment will be higher rent as faceless corporation will be chasing target ROI, etc. It must be worthwhile for corporations to operate in this space and governments will be moderated by this consideration.

I agree. The corollary to owners having less control over their assets once rented out is that they will need higher compensation in order to enter that agreement.

From a renter's point of view it is a trade-off.

I lived for a couple of years in Germany, which is always touted as the gold standard of enlightened housing policy by the activists, and the situation is not all rosy for the tenant.

Yes, tenants have great tenure, and there are controls on how much rent can be raised each year. A residential lease is essentially perpetual, and the longer you stay at a place, the longer the notice period is for the LL. Good for the tenant.

When you rent a place, it is a lot like commercial rentals here. There will potentially be no floor coverings, wallpaper, kitchen, light fittings, etc when you move in. There will be hot water, heating, and bare wires hanging out of the walls/ceilings. You will be required by your contract to renovate walls and floor every so many years. You feel a lot like being the owner, especially since you have almost owner-like tenure. Great for you if you intend to stay there the rest of your life.

Because of the rent increase controls, you will pay well above market when you move in, about market after 10 years and over time it will probably drop below market. To my mind this is bad for almost everybody. Lots of people are trapped in their current rental because they feel they can't move. many LLs take advantage (or seek compensation depending on your viewpoint) by not doing *any* repairs to the structure until they have a court order telling them to do so. Even then they sometimes don't do the repair and just eat the ordered rent reduction in the hope the tenant will move out. Many of the people I knew had long-running legal disputes with their LL. In cities where the economy is going well, there is always an acute housing shortage. I was in Munich, and rental ads went out at the same morning every week (pre-internet days). It was typical for the LL to have 40+ inquiries by 9am. If you went through an agent, the tenant typically had to pay an agent 2 months' rent as the fee for finding a suitable rental. In 1991, typical new tenant rent for a 100sqm apartment would be about A$4500/month in Munich. In Hamburg which was depressed at the time it was about A$2200. Hamburg and Munich are both smaller than Brisbane. As a result it was normal for professional people to be raising 2 kids in 75sqm apartments with windows on one side of the apartment only. (But they had tenure!). They could also afford to buy the apartment if they wanted to, but saw no reason to do so. Much better to rent forever and watch the rent shrink as a proportion of their disposable.

I would welcome a move towards long-term leases in Australia, but they would have to come up with something better than rent controls. I'd certainly be prepared to sign 5-year leases on some of my places, but I would want more rent and I would want sensible terms on rent increases. For example CPI would not cut it. The rental housing CPI component for that state would.
 
I gave a 5 year lease to a tenanta couple of years ago. They'd already been in for 4 years. Theywant tobe inone place neartheir childn's school.

Including capital growth probablyareturn 9% perannum
 
I agree. The corollary to owners having less control over their assets once rented out is that they will need higher compensation in order to enter that agreement.

From a renter's point of view it is a trade-off.

I lived for a couple of years in Germany, which is always touted as the gold standard of enlightened housing policy by the activists, and the situation is not all rosy for the tenant.

Yes, tenants have great tenure, and there are controls on how much rent can be raised each year. A residential lease is essentially perpetual, and the longer you stay at a place, the longer the notice period is for the LL. Good for the tenant.

When you rent a place, it is a lot like commercial rentals here. There will potentially be no floor coverings, wallpaper, kitchen, light fittings, etc when you move in. There will be hot water, heating, and bare wires hanging out of the walls/ceilings. You will be required by your contract to renovate walls and floor every so many years. You feel a lot like being the owner, especially since you have almost owner-like tenure. Great for you if you intend to stay there the rest of your life.

Because of the rent increase controls, you will pay well above market when you move in, about market after 10 years and over time it will probably drop below market. To my mind this is bad for almost everybody. Lots of people are trapped in their current rental because they feel they can't move. many LLs take advantage (or seek compensation depending on your viewpoint) by not doing *any* repairs to the structure until they have a court order telling them to do so. Even then they sometimes don't do the repair and just eat the ordered rent reduction in the hope the tenant will move out. Many of the people I knew had long-running legal disputes with their LL. In cities where the economy is going well, there is always an acute housing shortage. I was in Munich, and rental ads went out at the same morning every week (pre-internet days). It was typical for the LL to have 40+ inquiries by 9am. If you went through an agent, the tenant typically had to pay an agent 2 months' rent as the fee for finding a suitable rental. In 1991, typical new tenant rent for a 100sqm apartment would be about A$4500/month in Munich. In Hamburg which was depressed at the time it was about A$2200. Hamburg and Munich are both smaller than Brisbane. As a result it was normal for professional people to be raising 2 kids in 75sqm apartments with windows on one side of the apartment only. (But they had tenure!). They could also afford to buy the apartment if they wanted to, but saw no reason to do so. Much better to rent forever and watch the rent shrink as a proportion of their disposable.

I would welcome a move towards long-term leases in Australia, but they would have to come up with something better than rent controls. I'd certainly be prepared to sign 5-year leases on some of my places, but I would want more rent and I would want sensible terms on rent increases. For example CPI would not cut it. The rental housing CPI component for that state would.

So, to summarise, no NG environment eg Germany:

higher rent expected, 1991 base, 100 sq m bare apartment, $4500 per month, smaller city than Brisbane

compare with my executive Brisbane apartment 2015, 80 sq m (carpeted, secured parking, aircond, stone countertop, Bosch appliances) $1800 per month. It is not unreasonable to expect I can triple my rent as 1991 was 24 years ago? With that level of rent, I can live off rent and not have to worry about CG!

Couple professional with 2 children living in 75 sq m apartment with windows on one side of apartment. (Did not mention garage.) This is considered normal in Germany and I take it is a standard of affordability.

compare with Carlton student apartment, 40 sq m, 2 bed rooms. I have mentioned in a previous post that such apartments should be considered in the affordability debate. Such apartments should be appropriate for single or couple without children. Price is still $240k to $280k compared to the professional or couple's salaries and should be affordable. Expectations about affordability in Australia seems out of kilter with Germany!


By the way, 5 year lease is already available with student apartment in Carlton and the annual increase is based on the state housing component of the CPI. I believe student apartment is attractive to many people who are looking for yield and increasingly so in a low interest environment.


Disclaimer: I have interests in student housing.
 
Well realistically, ya dreamin if ya think they'll get rid of NG.

IMO it's inevitable change to NG will come. Most likely restricted to new builds.

Labor talking about it. Xenophon has mentioned. Now Greens on board... maybe not with current government in power, do you reckon they'll make it through the next election?
 
IMO it's inevitable change to NG will come. Most likely restricted to new builds.
Labor talking about it. Xenophon has mentioned. Now Greens on board... maybe not with current government in power, do you reckon they'll make it through the next election?

The government that ever got rid of it wouldn't make it to the next election.
 
Also things like Bankwest requiring 20% deposit for IPs are creating positive geared investments faster than 90% LVR investments.
Are they requiring the 20% in cash, or are you able to use equity from another property?
 
I'd be comfortable with them changing it to not being able to claim a loss on mortgage to rent difference. Eg if rent was $1000/mth and mortgage was $2000, not able to claim the difference as a loss. Able to claim up to that $1000 plus current expenses, depreciation etc...
Might have the desired effect of discouraging speculators.
 
Expect to hear more on this in coming weeks:

The Australian Greens will move for a full debate on housing affordability and negative gearing in the Senate next week, in response to Treasurer Hockey's wild-eyed predictions about the effects of negative gearing.

"To try and dissuade the Treasurer from just making stuff up in future, the Greens will move for an evidence-based debate in the Senate when Parliament resumes," said Greens Senator Scott Ludlam.

"Hockey has made claims that negative gearing reform would increase rents. This myth has been comprehensively debunked, in theory and in practice: it did not occur when negative gearing was wound back in 1985, and it won't occur today.

"This is an important debate and it needs to be driven by facts and evidence. There are legitimate arguments to be had about the best way to unwind these unfair tax concessions and help all Australians into affordable housing, but let's at least start from real-world facts.

"The Abbott Government has made severe cuts to housing affordability programs, they're displaying a shocking disconnect from people who are renting or looking to move into the housing market and they're ignoring the evidence on key policy proposals like negative gearing," Senator Ludlam concluded.
http://scott-ludlam.greensmps.org.a...sing-affordability-hockey-takes-leave-reality
 
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